this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024
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Honestly, Valve should just ask for proof that you are 18+ if you want to sell items on Steam market or trade them.
Easiest solution IMO.
When they were asked to implement age verification in Germany, they simply pulled anything off their platform in the country that would require it instead. Mind you Germany has a system that makes age verification anonymous so if privacy concerns you, you could just implement it. (Almost no platform does because they want your data though.)
Valve doesn’t want to touch age verification with a 10 yard stick and that tells me it is probably the way to go here. Because once they have it, the path for more regulations is clear.
In this arena, more regulation is needed. Anonymous age verification is a good idea, but I question the actual anonymity. It usually depends on trust of some entity. And I just can't fathom an entity that can really be trusted.
It uses the government ID, which has a built in NFC chip. You can use a phone in combination with your ID and it's pin to verify your age online. The ID scanner app will tell you which parameters the website requests from your ID, and its possible to only request the birthdate.
I don't like the system, but it is truly anonymous
Sounds like it is only anonymous if you fully trust the app. That app has all your information, and the site you are trying to access. And I bet it is completely closed source. It also likely has logs about what sires it is giving information to. Not who's info in that log. But elsewhere it probably has logs on who's id it verified. Get access to both, and software can start to crunch the numbers and figure out who went where. That if course is assuming they don't decide in the future that it is worth just keeping that data together in one spot. There is just no entity that could manage that app which wouldn't have a motive to use the data and power it has.
No, the app is completely open source and has reproducible builds. And the site you are accessing only gets the information it requested, and you see which information it requested in the app before scanning your ID
https://github.com/Governikus/AusweisApp
I looked deeper are read up. Everything I can find says the age verification function is not anonymous. There is an anonymous login function, but that doesn't seem to include age verification.
Well the entity is the government. You know, the guys who create your ID in the first place. It’s not perfect but it’s the best one I could conceive.
You can trust them to create the ID because it benefits them. But to guard you anonymity... that actually hurts them. So you can be sure they won't.
Foreign corporations are much more aggressive about harvesting data than the German government so you should think twice about using their products in the first place. Most of the time the German government is under fire for privacy concerns it’s because they trusted products from Microsoft or Huawei and the like.
My bad, I had the german government mixed up with probably the brits who are constantly saying they need to be able to read everyone's messages. That said. It's hard to know what the intelligence arm of a government is really doing. So if they give themselves a backdoor, it's hard to ensure only they come in. And the government is always only one election away from dramatic policy changes.
This. ID and anonymity are antithetical
If all the ID consists of, then no it's not.
As long as the part asking for ID trusts the part verifying the ID, there is no need for anonymity to be broken, since the verifier just has to confirm what the asking part needs to know.
Think of it like someone owns a bar and needs to know if a patron is old enough to drink, and the bar owners brother or best friend says "I know that guy, he is old enough".
Not necessarily. As another user noted, zero-knowledge proofs might be able to be used to anonymously age-verify people, if done correctly.
Not going to happen since Valve doesn’t want to manage a database of IDs. It’s why sex games with real life actors aren’t allowed on Steam since that would require Steam to have IDs and consent contracts of all the actors stored on their side.
And Gaben is a hardcore libertarian, probably despises government IDs.
Previously, I had mused over vague ideas about whether blockchain technologies could go into a "proof of real person" system, by one-way-hashing information used to verify only basic details about a person. Eg: They exist, are a unique person, and are over a certain age. Ideally, it could be set up in a way that cannot easily correlate them between company databases.
That said, no real need to poke holes in the idea, because...that was the easy part, and it will probably never happen (or be far more draconian than I describe)
It absolutely can be done with zero knowledge proofs, but it needs to be from an authoritative source.
It could prove you are over the age of 18 (or 21) without having to divulge any other sensitive information, and be untrackable between sites or any outside agency (e.g government doesn't know and can't know you visited a site or location that verifies your age)
They could add it to our drivers licenses or passports or whatever which would cover the authoritative part. Your ID is an NFT at that point, and could be fully digital.
Edit: they might even tie generating the proof to requiring a biometric verification (fingerprint) so you can't give your ID to someone else.
Zero Knowledge proofs are so fucking cool.
Say what you will about crypto in general, but the math behind some of the stuff is just so elegant.
No one has ever denied the math wasn't cool. It's just that the usecase (NFTs) were terrible. I guess the hype has now died down so we might see some actual uses, like land ownership information.
Well I was referring more to things like Monero, not NFTs...
Bit invasive if you have to provide photo id...
How often can one get a credit card at under the age of 18?
Surely that is a decent measure of it.
Also age of account? Mine is 21 in just over a week...
You would have to get a credit card though.
I don't have one and I don't want one. A debit card is good enough for me and those are possible and common to get before you turn 18.
I also imagine it's easier for kids to get their parents to enter their credit card details compared to an ID card without asking questions.
Then there will be a market for steam accounts (if there isn't one yet)
There definitely is already a resale market for Steam accounts, mostly used by cheaters or scammers who want a legitimate-looking account with no game or trade bans.
Same way as most kids got gta at 13
Or on the stock market or gambling which this is basically a mix of.
It is a solution for underage gambling, but adult gambling is also a problem
That’s not a solution at all. First of all, depending country, you will need a gambling license. This is a PITA as gambling laws will differ per country. In my country gambling is heavily regulated and you would need to check ID and keep track of how much a person gambles. You have a duty of care and if you notice a person’s gambling habits are becoming problematic you have to refuse them.