this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2024
466 points (77.9% liked)

Memes

45885 readers
1896 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 13 points 5 days ago (2 children)

As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he's describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.

Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don't think anyone is disagreeing with.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control.

Was supporting genocide "damage control?"

[–] [email protected] -3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Was supporting genocide “damage control?”

Here's the question I asked.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

That's the question I answered.

Which would you rather support?

  • Genocide
  • Genocide + fascism + other bad shit (probably including genocide 2)

Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.

The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is "how can we bring about the end of this government?", not "how can I maintain the good times for me personally?". But Democrats are callous psychopaths.

Also, it's already fascism you ghoul.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not "damage control" even though you love him for it.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

A. Please tell me exactly where I said Biden was anything more than a mildly less shit alternative to Trump. And please tell me where I was saying support the genocide, rather than support one of the people who supports the genocide.

B. I have not been talking about what Biden should have done. I have only been talking about what voters should have done.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago

Welp, you just saw that "damage control" has a limit. People will stay home if they see insufficient difference between the two pro-genocide parties.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I have only been talking about what voters should have done.

This election should have taught you that you can't control voters beyond giving them a reason to vote for you. Not being the other guy is not a good enough reason.

Third parties are electable when they can do this better than the two major parties, and people stop buying into the propaganda you are spreading. They are legitimized when you vote for them. They are a threat to the major parties that can only be realized if you vote for them.

Except, not you, because you're not an American voter, so why are you here again?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I don't think you got the main point of the video. Not only "large" change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?

If so, that seems not currently feasible.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Maybe you should watch it, then you don't have to ask such an ignorant question.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Sounds like you aren't clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

I'm quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.

He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or "teleporting".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Is there a succinct way of articulating why we can't do both? (e.g. vote for the lesser evil while also doing all the mutual aid and whatnot that we can?) Does it boil down to the argument that voting makes people less likely to build said alternative power structures?

I'll watch the video when I have time, but communicating an actionable strategy I think is essential to folks in crisis.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Is there a succinct way of articulating why we can't do both?

You can, if you want to. Just don't waste your time on electoral politics.

but communicating an actionable strategy I think is essential to folks in crisis.

Yes. Organizing is an actionable strategy.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago

Horses and water and drinking and whatnot

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Ok, so why not vote for the lesser evil then? It would increase the amount of time we have to organize without fascists cracking down on us.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (2 children)

The fascists have already been cracking down on people trying to organize.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago

So your solution is defeatism?

A bold strategy, let's see how it pays off. /s

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yes! Why not vote for the lesser evil to prevent harsher crackdowns than you would otherwise get?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Because it doesn't prevent anything.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

At the end, yes, both outcomes are the same unless organization is successful. Why make organizing any harder than it needs to be?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I am confused by your reply. What is the "rock" I am buying?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Did you watch the video? The rock that keeps tigers away is like voting that makes organizing easier.

Politicians react to organized mass movements, rather than elections. You got it backwards.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I did watch the video. I agree that mass movements are what is required for change. I don't understand, what am I buying?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You're "buying" that elections make organizing easier. Just like Homer is buying that a rock can keep tigers away.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

How would having a more evil leader, one who hypothetically locks down freedom of speech and starts arresting people, make organizing easier?

Seems like that would make it harder to do.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I don't know how to explain to you that the issues we're facing are systemic and don't depend on the "right" individual being a leader.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

How did we get here? I never said we needed to have a "right" specific individual being a leader.

All I'm saying is that I believe that if I have a choice to organize a progressive movement under either 100% Hitler or 90% Hitler. I would choose 90% Hitler. I feel like I'm not alone in that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

As I said: it's a systemic issue. I don't know how to explain that to you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Which specific issue is systemic?

I'm confused because you keep on jumping around to different points, you argue against positions that I don't have, and you don't directly answer any of my follow-up questions.

If I wasn't sure that you honestly believe what you are saying, I would accuse you of intentionally muddying the water. This looks a lot like psyop stuff.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The issue the meme is decrying: that the political landscape and discourse is shifting to the right.

How often do I need to repeat that I don't know how to explain it to you?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago

I agree with that. I never disagreed with the meme.

It has never been my position that voting for the lesser evil will solve all of our problems or bring about a progressive government.

I have only ever argued that voting for the lesser evil will give the people who are trying to organize (us) a better environment for doing so. Voting for the lesser evil helps with the organization. It's weird to me that people are against voting for the lesser evil. I don't get it, I hope someone can explain it to me.

Can you please stop assuming what positions I have?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm not arguing against voting. I'm claiming that it's not a valid strategy. You can partake, if you really want to.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Ok, this could just be me getting lost in the comment chain. To be clear you don't think voting for the lesser evil is harmful, but you also don't think it is a valid strategy. If that is true, I see no inconstancies in your arguments.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Pretty much. Since electoralism is inconsequential for progressive change: vote if you want.

Advocating voting for a lesser evil could be considered harmful, though.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Advocating voting for a lesser evil could be considered harmful, though.

Why?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Because it suggests that it's sufficient for progressive change.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I don't think it does.

Don't get me wrong. I know people who want to believe voting is all that is necessary for progressive change, but they are wrong.

Edit: How does voting for the lesser evil suggest that it's sufficient for progressive change?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

How does voting for the lesser evil suggest that it's sufficient for progressive change?

I said advocatingy for voting...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Ok how does advocating for voting for the lesser evil suggest that voting for the lesser evil is sufficient for progressive change? Is that better?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It suggests that people need to vote for progressive change and that congludes their options to enact power on the system.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

Yeah, that makes some sense. But you could just tell people that voting for the lesser evil alone is not enough, you also need to organize. I feel like that is pretty clear. That way you can have your cake and eat it too.