this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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I agree with UBI fully, but we ain't got nothing on Mansa Musa
Mansa Musa was just the king. It's like saying that everyone in America is rich because Jeff Bezos is rich.
Also, Mansa Musa's wealth has been exaggerated a lot and the crashing economies while on pilgrimage thing is probably bunk.
Yup, I'm going to trust your source-less comment over my University professors
Did your professor teach you that "my professor disagrees!" is a compelling argument?
Syas the one rebuttling without any sources
I'm not even the same person. But more importantly, I'm not the one acting like asking for sources is a rebuttal when a) you haven't brought any either, and b) this is an internet conversation, not an essay. If you really want to read up on what someone is saying, there are internet services that can be used to find more information to support or oppose what others say on the internet.
Mali only had an estimated 400 billion in treasury and it was a hereditary kingdom where only Mansa himself would have benefited directly. The United States treasury distributes 3 trillion across all federal agencies (some SUPPOSED to benefit citizens but y'know).
As for Ubi, there needs to be incentive to tie it to at least having a job or being on qualified unemployment or education. Know too many 18 year olds that would start cashing that just to stay at home and do nothing useful.
Im honestly tired of this argument.
Ive worked several jobs across my life time and if we paid people room and board to stay the fuck at home the world would be better for it.
Far from it but it's your fantasy land, my dude. Antisocial freaks who don't conceptualize the amount we need logistics and services can seethe on cope all day ig.
Automation and AI (it's not true AI but it's displacing workers all the same) and handling more and more logistics as time goes and the tech gets cheaper and better, there are less jobs that an 18 year old would qualify for.
Do you want someone doing that job that actually wants to work, or someone showing up and doing the bare minimum they can get away with to collect a check?
And the jobs that do actually have need of peiple? Well now they can do their part to attract those with the skill and knowledge to do them rather than rely on a revovling door of people just showing up because someone told them they had to.
You must never have worked in logistics. There are so many jobs that automation cannot do at this moment and won't for a very long time.
I'm not sure what you're talking about then because everything from truck drivers and trains to warehouse workers are being primed to be replaced by automated or AI networked machines. There are very few jobs in that sector not up to be replaced by a machine and most of those are things that require a masters degree in engineering or mathematics and statistics.
Pretty much everything that would be considered an entry level job someone with a high school diploma or GED would have a chance of getting isn't going to be around 10-15 years from now, and those that are will have a high level of competition that anyone not overqualified simply doesn't qualify against anyone else needing a job. What jobs can't be entirely automated or done by a machine are going to have more potential applicants than the company could ever hope to employ, let alone need to.
So yeah, TL;DR if we started UBI now with no strings attached and let people without a desire to work, you're not going to see a drop in productivity or services. The only places that might feel the hurt are the places that exploit that young adults without college degrees willing to work a job for 3-9 months before quitting and finding a new job.
Why can't someone cash in on UBI and do nothing? No one chose to be born here, to be alive, I am perfectly happy working and paying taxes to help people do nothing if that's what they want. Enough people want to do useful things that society is perfectly able to accommodate a good number of people doing nothing. Maybe that is also incentivized by nearly all the work available to a young person being bullshit that is degrading and pays very little.
Because then all you are is unironically a cancerous growth within society like the morbidly obese and unemployment abusers. To participate within society you sign and agree with the contractual terms. Nothing in this world is free of resource and labor, thereby nothing can be given without getting. It's the basic core of a finite resource, be it time or material. The idea that "enough people have ambition that we can support the lazy to fuck off until they die" is so unequivocally revolting.
'If a man will not work, he shall not eat' applies to the same principle of a UBI. If you wish not to assist in continuing our society further and assist in the services needed to operate, then you deserve nothing and should be left behind. Work on improving the conditions afforded workers and the work available, rather than incentiving actual mongrel degeneracy.
We are already being robbed every day, all profits of the working people are being funneled to the rich. Whatever amount this average teenager could waste by not working is completely insignificant compared to the trillions spent on speculation, weapons, political manipulation, and other billions of dollars spent on things that make all of our lives worse. How much money do you think a trillion dollars is? We are being tricked every day. There are billionaires that sit on their ass and do less than any lazy average person, and make thousands while doing it.
Current populist rhetoric using half truths is all this is. Yes there are reasons to be upset at our current situation, but the easy out of "muh billionaires" is so lackadaisical and falsified as a straw man for the stock market, politicians, and evil people who are actually an issue.
Lazy people are exactly the reason why shit is so bad as is. Look at any period of history pre-80s and you'll find a group of unified citizens actually doing something about their issue and making the government fear them using the necessary violence (the only language these fuckers understand as it removes their control through 'civility'). Now you say you want to give rise to a new class that happily takes their state mandated paycheck and then sits on their ass to not question why things aren't getting any better. Yeah no, it fucking disgusts me, this philosophy.
Yeah it's not just 'the billionaires' that's obviously a short hand for the greater issue. You hear about those people because they made differences, but throughout history most people are just as lazy as they are now. Sitting down and not working itself is a form of rebelling against this fucking bullshit that wants us to do something all the time. Fuck that, for what? I want to make the government fear the people that want to sit and do nothing. Because what the fuck is life for. What are you living for?
Family, myself, and the collective good that has allowed some like my friends with diabetes who would be dead without the efforts made by all to allow those who would have died otherwise a fair chance. Anyone capable of work has a moral obligation to assist in upkeep of a better society. The government doesn't fear people sitting on their ass, they fear the ones willing to die before giving up their rights. It's literally how history speaks of every successful government rebellion.
That's the thing though, you can't just sit on your ass, so the people most dedicated to that have to fight for the right haha. I agree though, everyone should work as hard as they can in the face of what is happening. Some people have different levels of what they can do while still being productive in their efforts, and I think that can look lazy sometimes to people. With too much strain or anxiety or whatever, a persons work could be counterproductive to the efforts they are trying to achieve. Sometimes doing nothing is the better option for a person's situation.
Sure, but your proposed idea was to allow (in my perception of your explanation) literal shut ins who don't provide ANYTHING be it entertainment, production, service, education etc, and just sit inside collecting a check while gaming or binging shows all day. That's not useful to anyone least of all themselves from a health perspective, and becomes a cancerous drain in multiple ways. THAT disgusts me. I have no issue with giving it to someone like my friend who only works weekends taking care of mentally challenged kids for a center. He has awful back issues and the levels of labor that he can meet are very restricted. But he still offers something to the world, in the manner he can. That's respectable and should be incentivized.
Well I don't think most people should be doing that, I just believe the vast majority of people actually do want to do productive work, more than enough for society to function just fine if some people were shut-ins, I don't think it's a good thing to do and you're right it's bad for your health. We've had large societies long before the economic system we have now, and with technology, work that would take substantially longer in the past can be done more quickly with fewer people today.
I don't remember signing shit before I was born. Lemme see that contract.
You benefit from the resource and labor collectivized to ensure you don't have to eat rotten food every night, sleep outside and die of exposure, or die in a bloody war against your will. It is a miracle you're even allowed to live considering how rough all of human history has been, and to ensure that keeps going while you benefit from it, you agree to assist in maintenance.
All that comes from the exploitation of the human population. If everyone was out to better the world we would be leagues further than where we are now. But a handful of people do and spend everything they can to stay in power.
Even if we overlooked all the exploitation that happened, where we are now thanks to everyone in human history, we don't need to work like we have in the past. Everything can be automated and everyone happier. But then the rich and powerful wouldn't get to be rich and powerful
I don't disagree on exploitation, my point is your rhetoric has lost the plot.
You physically cannot automate everything. Human input is always needed somewhere. There isn't enough resources on the planet to just wish problems away, everything atrophies, everything needs doing to get. Just because we don't work as hard as we did, doesn't mean we don't still have to work. There are necessary labor inputs to upkeep what we have achieved, and anyone who benefits and is capable should help ensure that everyone else can enjoy the same benefits going forward.
Wise men plant the seeds of a tree whose shade they will never know. Anyone not disabled, a child, or dead should contribute.
We could automate enough to make UBI a thing. Then nobody has to work a shitty back breaking demoralizing job and can then focus on better things.
Obviously there will be some shitty jobs that are an exception but you get what I'm saying. UBI for all
"You should be grateful serving your betters. Kneel like a good peasant, and I'll let you have a chicken bone to eat."
You should be happy serving your community and benefiting society. Live for something greater than yourself.
You can serve your community and benefit society without making the rich richer.
Not once did I say this wasn't true. My point is we shouldn't incentivize people to become wastes of resources and collective action if they are capable of contributing.
It's not "universal" if you start tying it to stuff. There are many cases where people cannot work (recessions, disabilities, need to care for family members, etc). The incentive to work would still naturally be there (to get more than "basic" income). Also, everyone wants a purpose, even if you may not see it as useful; it is a human need.
You need to get rid of your "work or die" mentality. Not everyone needs to work. Only those who want more than what the UBI gives them should work.
The world literally is work or die. God I would love to see any of you people try to exist before modern amenities allowed you freedom. You are morally obligated to assist in keeping this going
If people don't have to worry with the stress of just surviving the month, they'll want to do more with their life and get more. People will always want a bigger house, nicer car, faster PC, there'll always be the motivation to find work, and when they have the freedom and ability to achive that, they'll go do it. It's one of the ways we can utilise our greedy nature in a positive way.
What UBI will do is make it so the average person isn't at the mercy of minium wage jobs that will go nowhere, just to not die on the street. An effective slave.
The US government isn't trillions in debt and just using money like it's non existent? News to me
Do you not understand the concept that we don't just pay our debt back immediately. https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/
Still debt. Still less than the 400 billion that Musa had
Also what you posted straight up said we've collected 4.4 trillion and spent 6.1 trillion
That's... Not how anything works. I'm sure Bezos is far more in debt than you are and yet his spending capability dwarfs you.
What a shitty argument. Lol your so dumb
Right..