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Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
(www.nbcnews.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2024
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im convinced at this point that the "don't vote or you support genocide" thing is a russian troll campaign
Or maybe people actually see what's going on and see children get shredded with America's permission, democratic permission, and with American bombs with American intelligence and say hey we don't want this to happen anymore.
Maybe they see the party that is supposedly the "good" party brutally shut down protests against a genocide funded by them inside college campuses and think oh hey, that doesn't seem like free speech.
Maybe they see a party just as bought out and in lockstep with billionaires and think oh hey, that's not democracy.
Maybe they see a party that for two election cycles in a row has stolen the candidacy -- more people wanted Bernie than Clinton in 2016 but they gave it to Hillary because why? "It was her turn"
Then when half the party was pissed and worried with Biden, did they hold a snap election? Like every other civilized developed country? Nah, they just said here you are, take kamala.
And kamala has just been like yes we will keep bombing kids.
Maybe Muslim Americans and other brown Americans are tired of for 25 years being both sides boogeyman. They just expect us to sit there and vote democrat while they spend 25 years telling everyone that they are terrorists, that they bomb places, that they hate America, that they are an other, a column that doesn't matter. And if trump wins it will be their fault again. Not the fault of the 55% white people who somehow think that he's okay.
Maybe you guys need to get your head out your asses and see that america is not a beacon on a hill, it's a 300.year old empire that is crumbling into the gutter in front of you, and when empires do that, fascism follows. And you lot really need to realize that at this point, whether it's Democrat or republican, it's fascist. There is no choice, just the illusion of one. And again, democrats are as bought out by billionaires as the Republicans are.
It's like going to the store and seeing 15 different varieties of the same candy but they're all made by the same company and taste just ever so slightly different.
Oh It 100% is.
80% Russian campaign and 20% reaction to being lectured constantly by people who will forget that progressive votes are needed to beat Republicans when it comes time to pick a new candidate.
Progressive votes are already counted out. We know there will always be smug pseudo-intellectual “leftists” that will hold their vote as a threat to democracy if the don’t get their way with [current thing]. You do this every election year.
The problem is, you think people are going to give in to your demands when there is SO much more at stake than a war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
So no, you all can keep your votes. It’s too late to reason with trolls. The rest of us will be happy enough to not have to deal with you once you all disappear November 5th.
Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.
We fucking know, dude.
That's why we're voting for Harris. And no, I'm not going to explain why for the 1000th fucking time.
You are voting for them because "The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. "?
Because Harris is open to ceasefire pressure and Trump want's Israel to 'Finish the job'.
One's hands aren't morally clean if you don't vote and Trump wins. Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins, and if he does win with a low turnout then those who didn't vote are responsible for whatever happens.
I'm aware that the US government does propaganda too, yes. I have no idea what it has to do with this.
USA spend 10 times more money in war and propaganda than anyone else and they are being accused of supporting a genocide. Labeling as "russian trolls" these who are saying to not support the government or vote for criminals with blood on their hands sound more like the propaganda rather than people pointing the finger at war criminals.
Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.
(if anyone takes offense to me having "several" alts, that's because without using 3rd party apps you can't categorize interests like reddit's multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)
Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.
A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it's not), but right here...right now....it's true.
I'm pretty sure this has been the scare tactic for the last 8 presidential elections of my lifetime
It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That's how these cycles always go.
Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we're dealing with now.
yeah, we all know that. "the next trump" has been waiting in the wings since that guy got stabbed in ancient Rome. democracy requires all of us to complain and demonstrate.
You don't need much of a brain to understand that voting and supporting criminals with blood on their hands is bad. You also don't need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn't limited to vote between two colors.
I mean.. you said it.
But I agree, only idiots believe that third parties are viable in our broken electoral saystem
The system is so broken that only an idiot could believe in it. Third parties are the lesser evil choice.
it's a lot of good people on the far left side of twitter
Where we need to take America doesn't need extremists, of any kind.
I don't have a problem when Americans dislike abortions. I do have a problem when they try to take the option away from Americans.
I don't have a problem with people protesting civil rights violations. I do have a problem with Americans rioting and killing each other.
Extremism of any kind is toxic and has no place in a stable future. That's because all extremism is born out of a strong emotional desire or need from the people.
IMO the only way out of this is to stomp out the conservative extremist fires and roll back the damage they've done. Only this will appease the extreme left enough for them to walk back from the line.
Progress forward is a balancing act that requires a soft touch. Unfortunately we had four years of a crude daft orange ogre that destroyed that balance.
As long as we make it through the next two months, we should be fine. Extremists can't do anything against a mind they can't manipulate. Just don't fall for the emotional trap.
Stay calm, stay vigilant, stay in control.
You won't do anything, centrist, that's the point of being a centrist.
“America in 2016 was perfect until orange man ruined it, we simply need to return to 2016 and everything will be ok”
American politics in 2016 wasn't perfect, that's why it's been called the "Great American Experiment".
But the world was a whole lot quieter in 2015. Wasn't it?
Americans got along a lot better than they do today in 2015. Didn't they?
My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
Unfortunately, the Russian and Chinese governments have been trying to drive a wedge between the American public, and they're succeeding. Their actions have fractured American conservative parties into useless, "do-nothings". Now they're trying to do the same thing to the left. Until now they've been unsuccessful.
The United States of America has peered into the abyss before, similar to how we are now. I'll quote something that someone very wise said at that time that still rings true today.
As we stand upon the precipice, with baited breath, I hope for a future that my children can inherit.
This was reported, I'm not sure its rule breaking, but its weirdly aggressive.
The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.
I've got a question for you... I'm sure you are familiar with the famous, "First They Came" sermon/poem/whatever by Martin Niemöller? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?
Let's extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:
They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?
Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?
Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?
Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.
Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
Sounds like you agree it's bad enough now to want to stop it.
Bad enough to do what is in my power to reduce it. Which means voting for Harris.
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we've had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It's not like the choices are equal.
Sounds like a hell of a system.
Campaign locally to change the system - we need more places to use preferential voting like ranked choice before third parties will matter.
Until that happens, you can either work within the system that does exist or decide that your feelings matter more than the results 🤷♂️
My moral standards do matter more than the human world, yes.
Your moral standards matter more than the lives of people actually affected by the results. Yes, we all know how selfish you are, don't worry.
My moral standards are that peoples' lives are important, so killing them is wrong. That's why I don't accept that there is a good reason to bomb civilians.
My moral standards are not that you can say "well, killing people is wrong, but I prefer these people, so I will sacrifice others". If killing people is wrong, you do not accept sacrifice.
And my level of understanding of reality is that the trolley problem is a thought experiment which does not exist, and it's not a zero sum either/or game where the safety of people in America is only ensured by sacrificing people in the Middle East.
From my perspective, I am the one that cares about results more than feelings, and "blue no matter who" voters are the opposite. The results of democrat leadership have been a horror show of ghoulish support for genocide. The current administrations policies have directly resulted in tens of thousands of deaths (at least) in Gaza. I see a lot of democrats expressing feelings about how Biden and Kamala are actually good people, and are working hard towards a ceasefire. Let me know when to expect another result.
That's easy - when Trump is elected and he fully opens our arsenal and actually provides troops instead of maintaining current levels of support.
He has explicitly said that we aren't doing enough and that Israel isn't doing enoughevery single time he has spoken on the topic. Believe him.
Yes, the system sucks, and we should do what we can to fix it.
What is also important is Order of Operations. It will be much harder (if not impossible) to effect any positive change on the systems that be if the orange orangutan wins the election, while those changes will be at least possible under the leadership of the blue candidate.
I like to think that people who are not able to figure this out are victims of republican/russian propaganda. To think otherwise would be both depressing and enraging and I have too much of my own shit going on to deal with any of that.
I don't think you can end up anywhere good by bargaining with genocide. "Sucks" doesn't even come close to describing such a system. The order of operations you're talking about sounds to me like: 1- elect the more decorous monster 2- go back to ignoring all the suffering. I'll definitely agree that it's depressing, but it doesn't require any foreign propaganda to be that.
Thank you for saying this. If we keep choosing the 'lesser of two evils', we just keep allowing things to get worse, albeit more slowly.
That's been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to "teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead".
I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.
Somewhat?
I’m* convinced
And what about the "vote for genocide or you support genocide-plus!" posts?
That’s called logic. And a firm understanding of how things work. But also, that comes from people that know Harris will do what she is able to stop it once she’s elected, but needs to play the game to have a chance for that to happen.
But you all know this already. Don’t you?
How have you concocted such a fantasy? What sign has Harris given that she will deviate one iota from the current policy towards Israel? You just wish it to be so. Even if this were somehow true, it is almost worse! "No, you see, I have to support genocide now, so I can win all the pro genocide votes, and then as soon as I've won, I'll betray the people that elected me by stopping the genocide." Smell the logic, lol.
I've seen many: 'feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate' very few 'dont vote or you support genocide' are you sure you're reading peoples posts correctly?
It's the same fucking thing, oh my god
Same thing. The fact that most of these accounts, very similar to your own, are new accounts speaks volumes.