this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2024
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submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

your graph would go up quicker if all vegetarians and vegans went back to eating meat,

as i can't prove a counterfactual, i wouldn't make any such claim. i have no reason to believe that production could increase any faster.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I mean I can't convince you that demand affects supply if you simply don't think they are related.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

i think supply creates its own demand, but i don't believe there is any causal mechanism by which choosing to buy something causes more of it to be produced, nor that production causes others to purchase it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

How can supply create demand while saying production doesnt cause demand in the same paragraph?

Do you have some separate definition for supply and production I'm missing?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

i'm saying it's not causal or, at least, it requires more than simply making a thing for it to be bought by someone. fidget spinners are a great example. lots were made with no real understanding of their potential market. some were sold just because it's a cheap toy but it could easily have been any other similarly priced toy. the production created its own demand there, but not enough to empty every fidget spinner from a warehouse. so some other mechanism must be at play besides production (advertising, for instance). regardless, it certainly can't be the case that demand actually caused all those fidget spinners to have been produced.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

The way I see it, demand and supply are separate things that have a single relationship between them. Changing things on one side will likely affect the relationship but its not easy to tell how when both sides are complex.

Affecting supply or demand could work, and I would recommend people do both if possible. I would put more weight on being vegan than trying to affect regulation though.

I would however consider it a waste of energy to work towards more humane slaughter as thats only one brief part of the suffering the animals endure.

I think if you want to focus on animal activism with regards to factory farms then it would be better served on stuff like minimum life spans or ending forced impregnation and the removal of newborn animals from mothers.

But again, even if we improve those things greatly it would still be inhumane treatment and I would still be vegan. I would be more comfortable if regulations like those did reduce the line on your graph.

I do think if we had to permit the animals to leave at least half of their natural lives or maybe 75% before slaughter, it would bottle neck production and tank it.

I guess I just am more sold on the vegan idea than the regulation idea, but both are completely unproven and have very low odds of success in the near future.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

i think artificial insemination is safer for cattle than being mounted by a bull. that's likely true across the barnyard. so i'm fine with artificial insemination. i could see some argument about regulating separation practices, but my dairy farming friend tells me some cattle are bad moms and don't want to suckle their calves. i don't know how you could regulate any particular cow's inclination to nurse. and... as for life spans, i don't think their natural lives, free from veterinary care, provided food, water, shelter, and protection from predators would be any longer than they live now. i don't know and i'd love to have some real evidence of the lifespan of, say, holsteins in the wild. or broiler chickens.

so all your specific reforms are something id need to be sold on anyway, and i think of myself as a pretty reasonable and sympathetic subject, so you might be right about the difficulty of passing those specific reforms anyway.

but like... good luck.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

If we are bringing these animals into the world we are responsible for them. Thats why I bring up natural life, they aren't in the wild and we are talking about domesticated animals.

As long as they are in our care the rules are different, as far as I see it.

If regulation passed we wouldnt just kill all the remaining animals, we would have to do something for the remainder of their lives until their numbers dwindle.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Probably easier just to ask what reforms you do support, or at least you think would be effective?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

clean living conditions. penalties for abuse. humane slaughter.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

We could slaughter them in more pain free ways, but it doesnt't change that they don't consent to be killed. Thats sort of a non starter for vegans.

They already are supposed to have clean living conditions and there are penalties for animal abuse, they just are rarely reported and punished.

I think the problem I have with regulation is it rarely seems to work out when we do get regulations. They are written deceptively, and then aren't enforced.

I suppose that doesnt mean good regulation is impossible but its part of my reluctance.