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'We are all Gisèle': French women rise up against 'rape culture' during Gisèle Pelicot trial (www.usatoday.com)
submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, "one rape every six minutes," "not all men but always a man," and "giving in is not consenting."

They chant: "Rapist we see you, victim we believe you."

Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.

The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over "rape culture" and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It's interesting to see why there's a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.

an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes

that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.

side note: I don't know how the article got numbers for "being made to penetrate" specifically, the CDC article doesn't seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting "unwanted sexual contact" in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.

An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.

This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.

An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes

this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women's rate double men's. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.

here's an interesting part about "always a man":

women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.

That sounds like it all comes pretty close to "always a man".

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

that's being penetrated, I think it doesn't include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.

Right, in many municipalities it's impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case "men rape more than women" is like saying "you're more likely to starve without food." No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.

You see how that skews the data, right? Sure "it's all men" if you don't count the women, why would that surprise anyone?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

those cases are not relevant here. the data we're talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they're included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don't even realize they have been raped), I'm not sure how they can accurately estimate.

In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn't what I call "cool." I'd much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.

Furthermore this whole "women can't rape men" thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about "who rapes who more" until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.

How's that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.

side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.

From the 2011 study in the Results section:

For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and "if" and "should"s.

there is an extended timeline. it's called lifetime. and it tells a different story.

about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% ... anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that's still more than double the rate of men.

in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women's rates nearly double men's in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.

sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)

etc etc...

I don't know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.