this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.
Lemmygrad / Hexbear pacifists want Ukraine to appease Russia and give up territory.
They are not the same.
Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.
But an important consideration should be whether one's actions actually contribute to Russia withdrawing sooner, or if they instead help justify further, equally self-interested NATO involvement in the war.
Unless you are Russian, it's most likely the latter.
There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn't matter which one of them technically started it.
I'm sorry, but when it involves one imperialist bloc invading a smaller country, then it does matter.
Do you have the same position regarding the Vietnam war, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan? Or do you only support whichever side is not aligned with the US?
The Vietnam War? You mean the one where a rebel faction backed by Russia rose up against a smaller, recently established pro-Western government, and the US came to the defense of that government, because if they lost the enemy would surely keep expanding more and more across the entire region, and all the peace advocates were dismissed as supporting appeasement? That Vietnam war?
Yes, we take a similar position on that as we do to this, do you?
Vietnam was opposing a puppet government imposed by the US.
The Ukrainians opposed a Russian puppet government in 2013.
Do you support both Vietnam and Ukraine?
I support both the Vietnamese fighting against the South Vietnam puppet government and the Ukranians in the DPR fighting against the current Ukrainian puppet government, yes (though my support for the latter is more critical since they're not communists)
You did not answer my question.
Did you support the Ukrainians rebelling against their government back in 2013. Or do you only support a side if that side happens to oppose the US?
I disagree that the previous government was a puppet government.
My political aims go against the interests of the US, so generally groups that are aligned with my aims oppose and are opposed by the US. I don't believe in judging every conflict as a disinterested third party with no consideration of past events or present conditions. The US has a long history of installing far-right governments, has an atrocious record of human rights, and violates sovereignty left and right, and that is relevant to who I support.
I do believe in giving critical support to just about anyone who's willing to disrupt the unipolar world order in which the US has license to act as a rogue state. I want everyone involved in starting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to face a war crimes tribunal and be shot or hanged, and I support things that bring us closer to that goal. You, on the other hand, want to keep blindly trusting those same people to tell us who our enemies are. The only way to put any check on the US's rampant militarism and aggression is through a multipolar world order.
Of course you do, that's my point.
Tankies will support whichever government aligns with a power that is not the US. Even if that power is a capitalist oligarchy like Russia.
They do, but the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.
Specially when you take into account what Russia has done. They have a long history of erasing East European cultures (i.e. Russification), and genocide. So I do not trust them when it comes to Eastern European affairs, and neither do native people from those countries, most of support for Russia in those areas comes from Russian minorities (I wonder how they got there).
Your points real dumb then. Yanukovich was no more a Russian puppet than Poroshenko was an EU puppet. The fuck do you think a puppet government even is?
Great argument.
Of course they're not, and I don't consider them as such. They are, however, the enemy of my enemy. Ideally, once the US is dealt with, Putin can get the wall next.
The US has a much worse historical record with genociding native people, so maybe Russia should support some landback movements in the US. Afaik they never did anything to the Native Americans.
I'm not sure what genocide you're referring to in any case. But I'm sure you can dig up some skeletons in the closets of any two historical neighbors if you go far enough back. What's funny about your argument is that you seem to be suggesting that people thousands of miles away are better suited to govern a region, since they likely don't have a similar record.
Are we just going to ignore the part where the USSR expanded Ukraine's borders to include the disputed regions?
Have fun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification
Famines are not genocides lol. Though I suppose you could make the case that the embargo on the USSR caused a lot of excess deaths. Famines were extremely common before the USSR took power because it was a pre-industrial society, the USSR ended that. Also, the USSR is a completely different government from the Russian Federation.
How do you feel about the Irish Famine?
The Irish Famine was a genocide, because it was intentional. I should've clarified I mean that famines can be genocides, but are not inherently genocidal.
I'll note that your own source says in the introduction:
Likewise, the article on the Kazakh famine:
And
The last one I didn't see any mention of genocide though it might be buried deeper in the article, it's pretty long.
Here's a quote from the Irish Famine (same source: wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Genocide_question
So you have two options:
You either accept both as a genocide
Or you basically pick-and-choose based on whichever country was responsible for the genocide.
My guess is that you'll take the second option.
Or I could... not base my views on history entirely off of Wikipedia articles?
So... first you believe Wikipedia, now you don't, based on whichever articles suit your views?
I don't think you understand how this works. You cited Wikipedia asking me to accept it as a source. That means that you accept it as a source, and I may or may not accept it as a source. Given that Wikipedia says that your claims of genocide are disputed, you have to accept that. I don't have to accept Wikipedia as authoritative, because I never claimed it was, I'm just saying that if you accept it, then you have to accept that all your claims are disputed. That's just how citing sources works.
You debatebroed the debate bro with actual fact and logics, holy hell
(notice how they haven't responded after lol)
:::spoiler emojis
Ipso facto absurdeum you have only two options now.
Checkmate tankie
https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/11/21/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/
Those were violent right-wing militias, not peaceful protestors. Did you support the people rebelling against the US government on January 6th? Because that's a genuinely analogous position to supporting the Maidan coup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
How is this in any shape or form analogous to the Jan 6th?
Euromaidan was far worse. Watch Oliver Stone's Ukraine on Fire.
In both cases the rioters sought to overturn the democratic election of a president, and in both cases they did so by storming the legislature. The difference is that the Maidan coup was successful. (Perhaps because of significant US support for it?)
In both cases there was Russian meddling involved.
I guess Ukrainians are just better at rioting?
lmao Russia had nothing at all to do with January 6th buddy, that was all Trump
I wonder where Trump got his support from. 🤔
Maybe from the fact that the bloodless US political class has delivered nothing to ordinary people for decades, and people were ready to grab onto anyone who actually seemed to offer a promise of something different? Maybe from the vast swathes of racism that still suffuse the population, which aren't readily cleansed from a country literally built on white supremacy?
You libs love to use "sure the US is bad too" as a throwaway line, but you clearly don't actually believe it, seeing as you can't even imagine that this country could elect Trump without being induced to do it by Evil Russians.
BlueAnon
fascists right here at home in the united states. sorry, you can't blame the scawy foreigners for the cancer in your society.
It's absolutely wild how so many USAmericans completely lack the ability to understand that their problems are homegrown.