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No, that in itself is vile. The reason why neo Nazis are despised is because they subscribe to a hateful, idealist, and tyrannical ideology that ended up failing every time it was tried and has killed tens of millions of people. There's another idealist ideology that also got popular around the same time, but had the same fate of failure, tyranny, and resulted in the deaths of tens of millions... what was that ideology again? Oh that's right, it's Marxist socialism. You're not morally superior to fascists, you're just as trash as them. If Marxist socialists had a similar movement in size and influence to Trump and MAGA and were in a position to win, the sane majority would be just as terrified, and rightfully so.
"We stand against genocide!!! ...but not that one, that one is okay"
This is the type of ignorance that I expect from Marxists. Israel and Palestine are both artificial states created around the same time. There has literally never been a moment in human history where a sovereign state called Palestine existed. Before the current states Israel and Palestine, there was the British Mandate that was arbitrarily drawn... just like the British and French did with the rest of the region. Before that, it was the Turkish Ottoman Empire, and they had completely different divisions of the region. Before that, it was the Egyptian Malmuk Empire, and they also had their own divisions of the region. The same thing goes for the Ayyubid Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, and the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem... but at that point we've gone back 1000 years. This narrative that you cling to is not true.
Ukraine just got invaded, quick, hold a pro-Russian rally. What? ISIS just massacred a Yezidi village? I guess it's a perfectly appropriate time to hold a pro ISIS rally. Hmm, Al Qaeda appears to have launched planes into buildings in New York, I guess it'll be wise to stand solidarity with the islamist resistence.
Because why be principled and stand with victims against senseless violence when we can be a brain dead ideologue who's pro terrorism and genocide when it suits your ideological goals and anti terrorism and genocide when it doesn't? If you ever wondered why the far left never seems to get a foothold anywhere, this is why.
What kind of a heartless ghoul do you have to be to support the Oct 7th terrorist attacks against innocent civilians?
Of course, of course. I mean why would you ever support a pragmatic ideology that has consciously proven to be a success to those who have tried it and has resulted in the freest, most democratic, and most prosperous societies in human history when you can support a failed tyrannical ideology that has killed tens of millions? Clearly, with the power of hindsight at our disposal, we can clearly see the latter is a better choice than the former /s.
That's literally the origin of every single country in history. What alternate reality do you live in?
So let me get this straight, you unironically think that America is an illegitimate terrorist state and you're openly working against American interests, and you expect Americans to support you? How dumb do you have to be to think that Americans in America would cheer on for idiots that think their country is evil, illegitimate, and should be destroyed? Not only are these claims false, but you're not really driving home that your ideology is not the result of foreign adversaries.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. When you cheer on for America's adversaries, when you interests are openly against the country, when you conveniently align with foreign adversaries on most things, when you employ tactics like revisionism, propaganda, and double standards to demonize the US but justify, excuse, and downplay America's adversaries doing questionable shit... then your movement is probably a foreign assest.
There are real problems within the country that need to be addressed, however, you're not an alternative or a part of the solution. The far left is a part of the problem. There will never be a day in this country where you will see power, and hopefully the same exact thing is true for the far right. Extremists belong in secluded online echo chambers, not in positions of power.
Imagine defending capitalism and Israel with what's been in the news lately. Boomer mentality.
Marxists: "Here is misinformation to justify destroying Israel and implement a failed tyrannical ideology that killed tens of million of people"
Normal people: "No, can criticize and condemn the actions of the Israeli government while also acknowledging reality and working for a resolution where both Israelis and Palestinians get to coexist peacefully. We can also criticize our economic system and call for actions to improve it with stronger regulations"
You: "What are you? A boomer?"
Israelis and Palestinians can't coexist peacefully while Israel exists in its current state, as an ethnostate focused on settler colonialism. That's like saying normal people want black and whites to get along and also apartheid South Africa should still exist. They can't at the same time, it's fundamentally impossible. Once again, tearing down Israel as it exists doesn't mean hurting any of the people in it (unlike what Israel is doing to the Palestinians). States are just political constructs. You could easily create a new state in that area making up Palestine and Israel called Palestine II: Electric Boogaloo with a new Constitution not based on religion and equal protection under the law, and it would be purely an improvement for everyone who lives there, and yet you're saying that's a bad thing?
Also, Marxism isn't a failed political ideology. There's plenty of states based off it that exist today. Also, capitalism has killed way more than tens of millions of people if you want to base it off every death even slightly in the orbit of a country like that (which is what those huge, ballooned figures usually do). Hell, it's caused the destabilizing of almost every country in the global south, so I'd say it's got an even worse track record of "failed states". It's only held up through imperialism, wars, and coups. For every bad thing you point at one of those countries, an equally bad event can be pointed at a capitalist country, too. Also, it's also still a good framework for analyzing domestic policies and events as well, especially with all the enshittification happening. It's evolved, like any science, but still extremely predictive.
The question one has to ask, if someone is as committed to burying the truth as you, what kind of duck does that make you? A bigot duck?
What truth is buried? You just sound mad because I openly criticize the far left for how shitty they are since you are probably one.
How dare you call me a lefty, take it back now!
You know Stalinism isn't the only type of socialism, right?
The reason the DSA's predecessors added "democratic" to their name was to explicitly say that they're not Stalinists.
That every nation-state is built on a foundation of blood is a fairly common belief among socialists. You are not making the point you think you are. This is particularly blatant in some countries; some don't just have to deal with the effects of a colonialist past, but have a colonialist present. This is why socialists focus so much on the USA and Israel.
Furthermore, the USA's imperialism is the reason it has so many enemies. You treat them as evil demons out to get your country. Many are. But consider for a moment why they became this way. Why do people keep becoming terrorists? Why does reactionary populism hold so much sway over the people of these foreign adversaries?
Social democracy hides the flaws of capitalism under the rug, rather than solving them. The corporations of Sweden treat their workers at home well, it is true. But what of the workers abroad? The Swedish designer gets to sit in a comfy office and earn a great salary designing clothing after going through college for free. The Singaporean sweatshop worker that makes the clothing earns pennies. Under capitalism, one cannot exist without the other. Attempts to implement social democracy in a poor country that relies on plantations and sweatshops seldom go well. You mentioned one example yourself: Venezuela.
I will not excuse the bad takes the DSA have on foreign policy, nor the idealized past where Palestine was a land of perfect harmony that the other guy imagines, because you have a point there. You do not have a point about socialism overall. These people are trying to achieve a better future: one where people truly govern themselves, rather than taking orders from a greedy board of directors or a power-hungry politburo. I don't like their love of electoralism or their position on Ukraine, but they're actually striving for a future we can be proud of. They're not conjuring the vengeful spirit of McCarthy, who sees foreign agents everywhere, nor are they channeling Fukuyama and saying that what we have now is the best there is and the best there ever will be. Can you say the same?
Marxist socialism isn't idealist. In fact, it's one of the few ideologies which isn't idealist. It's based on an scientific economic analysis of capitalism. Contrast this against our current system, liberalism, which is the failed idealization of liberty. Liberalism neglectfully kills hundreds of millions even in developed and politically-stable countries, but it's just normal at this point.
Morality is idealism.
Oh no, they're going to improve life expectancy and stop billionaires wasting all our hard work! The terror!
If anything, you, SleezyDizasta, should want Marxists to be in a position which threatens the ruling parties, because them being threatened is the only way you will ever get any of that big list of reforms you posted, bargaining to try and deradicalize the masses away from unrest. We saw this happen in Western bloc countries near the USSR such as the Nordic countries, considered the most progressive but gradually sinking back in line with the rest of Europe now.
Dissolution doesn't even suggest killing, at all. I don't think you know what words mean.
I was referring to Palestine. Perhaps I should have specifically said 'the region of Palestine' but I didn't want to be condescending by stating the obvious.
How dumb do you have to be to think that most Americans like their governments?
[skipped over a lot of obvious bad-faith bullshit lol]
Marxism:
A scientific analysis that gets basic facts about the structure of property rights in the capitalist system wrong, and uses value theory to critique a property system
Moral arguments can help make people class conscious and recognize their oppression. Morality can motivate people to act, gives them a coherent structure for guiding action, and give direction. Morality is an important tool that enables people to coordinate without authority
@politics
For my own learning (not trying to argue), can you list some of those basic facts of property rights?
Agreed. I wasn't saying morality is pointless or worthless or anything. Even myself, I often 'do the right thing' on impulse rather than reason. I'm pointing out that morality is an idealistic structure, referencing the ironic appeal to morality from someone who was trying to critique Marxism for being an "idealist ideology". Morality is so subjective and unquantifiable it wasn't even worth arguing against their silly comparison.
It is a powerful tool, although I must admit I have serious issues with the most common frameworks of morality I see today, being framed as absolute rules a vacuum. And like you said, moral arguments can have excellent rhetorical power, and moral righteousness is a powerful motivator. The bottom line is, what anti-capitalists try to do fits into most moral frameworks as clearly good, and that's great!
Marx incorrectly cites private property as capitalist appropriation's basis. The employment contract is what enables the employer to appropriate the entire positive and negative result of production. Now, capital ownership does play a role in increasing bargain power to get favorable terms during contract negotiations. By emphasizing value, he missed out on a critique based on property rights. In property terms, the employer gets 100%
Morality can be analyzed in less idealist ways @politics