this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2024
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Showerthoughts
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The issue isn't gender. Gender is a social construct. The issue is sex. Female sports were always intended to be for female athletes. Female athletes who choose to play female sports to have a more level playing field and to play against other female athletes find it unfair to be forced to play against male athletes playing female sports. Trans women are women but they aren't female.
Nah, that's simply not true if you look at the actual data about how well trans athletes perform.
What's not true? That trans women aren't female? That's undeniably true. That female atheletes who choose to play female sports to have a more even playing field and to play against other female atheletes find being forced to play against male atheletes unfair? That's undeniably true as well. That female sports were intented for female atheletes? That's undeniably true. That gender is a social construct? I mean...that's a central pillar of the platform so we have to agree that that's true.
Your beliefs don't change reality and simply waving your hand in the air and declaring undeniable truths to be untrue does NOT make them untrue.
That cis women playing against trans women is unfair. As said above, the actual data proves that this is not the case. Of course it's undeniably true that reactionary dudes (and maybe even women) feel like things are unfair, but the actual facts invalidate that feeling.
The discretized, simplified middle school biology you're invoking here is simply not a precise enough model to depict reality.
Trans women aren't “male” from a muscle development perspective, as they don't have a male hormone profile lol.
Go back and point to ANYWHERE that I said that it was unfair for trans women atheletes to play against female atheletes. I'll wait...
No? I didn't say that. You made that up. What I said was that female atheletes who choose to play female sports to have a more level playing field and to play against other female athelets feel that it's unfrair to be forced to play against male atheletes playing female sports.
THAT is absolutely undeniably true.
Female atheletes understandably feel that it is unfair to have male atheletes breaking female atheletic records by such margins that no female athelete will ever be able to break them.
What are you even talking about, then? "The problem is sex, but it isn't sex actually"?
If trans women can play in women's leagues just fine (after hormonal treatment I think is the typical rule), what is "females don't want to play with males" supposed to mean?
Is it just the hormonal treatment? You have to understand how confusing it is to phrase this point that way.
It's only confusing to you because it doesn't fit into your narrative and your carefuly rehearsed arguements don't work.
My friend,
Explain to me how I am supposed to resolve these.
If you're not anti trans athletes, then whatever, but come on.
Trans women are women but they aren't female. Gender is a social construct. Sex is not. You can choose to be a woman but that doesn't make you female.
Female atheletes understandably feel that it is unfair to have male atheletes breaking female athletic records. I mean...that's pretty obvious, isn't it?
I'm trying to explain to you why a female athelete who chose to play a female sport to have a more level playing field and to play against other female atheletes might feel that is is unfair to be forced to play against a male athelete and why they might feel that it is unfair to have a male athelete break a female athletics record by such a margin that no female athelete could ever hope fo break it again.
This is not a difficult concept. Gender is a social construct but we're not talking about gender. We're talking about male and female. A male can decide to identify as a woman but she can never be female. A female can decide to identify as a man but he can never be male. You can be equally socially but you will always be different sexually. That's just reality.
You want to live as a woman and be called a woman I'm totally on board with that. You just can't force people to believe that you've magically changed sexes because you haven't.
You can want against all want for it to be different but it isn't and it never will be.
I am not transphobic. Not by the longest of shots and labelling anyone who doesn't buy into the group think as a transphobe completely devalues anything else you might say. I absolutely believe in social equality but trans women and females will never be the same thing.
Watch out, man. The bees are starting to pollinate your mind. You should probably take another shower.
This post was reported for transphobia. Specifics weren't given. It seems like you use the term "female" to mean someone that was assigned female at birth. I'm not sure if language is changing in this area and I certainly don't know technical definitions. Female does seemed to be used as a gender identity as well. For example the opening paragraph here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman
I think many cultures are learning how to be more welcoming to people from all walks of life, which is great, and conversations like this one are good for discussing some of the nuance.
Please keep things civil and assume the best of other's intentions. We are all learning. We are all human.
Edit: spelling
I meant "female" in the context of biological sex as opposed to the social construct of gender as in, "woman" which may be a person who is either male or female. I am FAR from a transphobe and using the word and the reporting system on Lemmy as a bludgeon to try to silence anyone who doesn't buy into the extremist group think utterly devalues anything else that the extremists say. One of my oldest friends is a trans woman. She would VERY much disagree that I am a transphobe. My lesbian daughter whose trans and non-binary friends I interact with every day would also very much disagree.
I would like to counter report this as a false report by an extremist pushing a political agenda and trying to silence anyone who has different ideas than them.
It sounds like you have a lot of experiences that others could learn from, but you will likely push people away if you attack them directly (calling them extremist) rather than only attacking their positions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
One tactic that I like is asking them questions that lead them to point out the flaws in their own arguments. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
Would you be more or less likely to learn from someone that calls you an extremist?
I have a lot of experience and I am very LGBTQ+ friendly. I only label as extremists those who push beyond the bounds of, "Everyone has rights, gender is a social construct and you can identify as whatever you want" into denying that male and female are things or claiming that identifying as a woman somehow magically makes you female. The whole, "You can't question what we believe or you're a transphobe" is EXACTLY the same as, "You can't question the actions of the state of Israel or you're an antisemite." It's utter nonsense. Those are both examples of extremism.
Sorry...I didn't answer these parts of your comment.
They have a carefully rehearsed circular logical set of arguments that are self-confirming. I can explain and explain and explain but it doesn't confirm their bias so they just keep going around in circles. I don't expect to reach them but I may help someone who isn't so closed minded to understand.
My daughter goes to pride festivals every year as a vendor in the market. Last year was hopping. This year was dead. My wife and I wondered if all the pushing to force biological males into the places that biological females fought for decades to get wasn't turning a lot of people off. That would be extremely sad since the LGBTQ+ community has worked so hard to get to where it is now.
I have Asperger's so I don't care what people call me (other than calling me a transphobe or antisemite with the new definitions written by the extremists.) If they're making a cogent argument I will generally respond in kind.