this post was submitted on 10 Jun 2024
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The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.

Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.

It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.

Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I've told you multiple times I'm ok calling it an apartheid state. This is like the 3rd or 4th time now. Go back to playing team sports now.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I don't think it's team sports. I think it's one of two things:

  1. Sometimes people just have a kind of pathology where they like to argue on the internet, because it's satisfying, and they have to "win" or present as a winner in every conversation, and so facts and reality (even demonstrable reality like what the other person said or what the primary sources say) sort of have to bend to what would let them "win" by making some claim or accusation.
  2. I looked over Linkerbaan's user a little bit and it has a little bit of a singular focus on Democrats and Biden ("Democrats are just Republicans these days" "Biden is actively violating Leahy law" "Trump isn't much different than any generic Republican"). Aside from picking crazypants arguments about Hamas not raping anybody, the only other real trend to their comments is domestic politics with a don't-vote-for-Democrats-fellow-leftists flavor that seems oddly familiar.

I initially thought they were way too committed and energetic about this stance they're taking about the UN report, to be any kind of shill, but now I'm less sure. They're certainly posting with a level of energy and aggressiveness that makes a lot more sense if it's their job, and usually people who have come by their counterfactual opinions organically have some kind of structure built up in their head for why it makes sense to them (Like they would say the UN report is crazy and biased and can't be trusted for some reason -- they wouldn't just insist for 2 days that it says a huge variety of very specific things that it doesn't say, and then just not address it on any level when someone points out the contradiction while continuing to go HAM on arguing about it. The second one sounds more like disinformation poster behavior to me.)

I don't really know. They don't act like most shills (or who I believe to be shills) that I have encountered. Like if you just looked at their comments arguing about Hamas, you probably wouldn't predict that their other singular area of focus in comments would be Biden and the Democrats. But the more that I look back over the conversation + take a look over their user, the more it makes sense to me as an explanation.

(Oooh... I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase "blue MAGA," and if you look back past the current conversation there's a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats and quite a concerted effort to link Israel's policies to Biden. The plot thickens.)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

(Oooh... I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase "blue MAGA," and if you look back past the current conversation there's a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats

I've seen some of the other usual suspects use "blue maga" as well, along with the same biden and democrats rhetoric.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yeah. It was virtually unknown on Lemmy up until around May 20th, when return2ozma and a few other accounts all started using it at the same time. It's sort of dropped off since then; I think their effort to make it catch on failed. But there are a few accounts that still like to drop it into conversation in perfectly natural fashion every now and again.

I think like a lot of propaganda, it's not meant to have any wild level of success on its own; it's more just one little piece that's designed to combine with a hundred other little pieces to create a sizable overall impact.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yeah that's a good assessment. It's the aggressive and highly energetic and/or frenetic level to it that is particularly odd.

I've had lots of discussions or disagreements on this platform with various people, but the vitriolic nature of their comments indicates either a) very young person b) aesthetic / team sports argumentation for the sake of argumentation. Like arguing for the sake of arguing. Can be fun for some people I guess.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Yeah. For me the really notable factor is the weirdness of the disconnect. Like if you look at the person's claims and study the flow of the conversation back and forth, it starts to become really obvious that they don't actually have factual belief in the things they are saying. But they still want to continue the conversation and invest a bunch of energy into it. Like, a lot, over a long period of time.

So... why? There aren't too many plausible explanations for those two things in combination, and then coming alongside "blue MAGA" and Democrats this and Biden that, it all of a sudden clicks into focus and it all makes sense. Now that I'm looking at it more, I'm pretty sold on shilling being the explanation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Well, when I say team sports I mean it as an aesthetic. There are plenty of noble and lofty revolutionary causes to attach onto these days and honestly it's really laudable that young people are becoming more invested politically.

But there is a contingent that in my opinion is only tagging along the ride for the perceived social capital that is gained by joining a team. Right now, Palestinians are victims and targets of atrocities being perpetuated by the IDF. Right now the in-group is committing a sort of map and territory switch where the aesthetic of the cause supersedes the goals it is trying to achieve.

A good example to ground this is political streamer Hassan Piker: He lives in a multimillion dollar mansion, drives a Porsche, and touts himself as a socialist/communist. He has a sickle and hammer backdrop in a lot of his merchandise but he wouldn't be the product of what he is without milking capitalism to its full extent.

That's why when I call out Linkerbaan for larping, I mean it's just an aesthetic or as a performative production. The map has become the territory.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Antonio Gueterres, the head of the UN certainly doesn't believe the things you are saying.

Israel fumes as UN secretary-general leaves Hamas off sexual violence blacklist

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Cool! I love the "Never Play Defense" game, and would be happy to bring some other random assertion into the mix to counterbalance your random new assertion. But, I have exhausted the amount of effort I want to expend on this right now. Another day, sure; feel free to reach out any time.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

You keep bringing up the same stale points debunked a million times in every thread. Even in the post it's mentioned the Patten report is not a proper investigation.

You're the one that doesn't want to defend the fact that the UN doesn't acknowledge the Patten report as evidence.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If you are really hankering that badly to continue the pointless back-and-forth, I should be able to provide you with something, just not right now. I will get back to you though. I have an idea that I think can keep you busy for more or less as much time as you want to spend on it.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

We're in an article that spent money on a dark web expert to dig up any rape evidence and still didn't find any.

The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023 . But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If only those fools from the UN team had spent their money on that, instead of a team of experts in sexual assault who then toured the affected areas and interviewed all those people and reviewed forensic evidence. The answers were on the dark web the whole time. Everyone knows the first thing you learn in Hamas is how to use Tor Browser. Now that you say it that way, it’s completely obvious.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Which forensic rape evidence was found? You're bringing it up so surely you mean to imply there's forensic evidence of rape in the UN report?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Why would I need to tell you? You've read the report, you said, so you would know what is and isn't in it.

A sarcastic response occurred to me, so I let it out, but I'm not interested in continuing the lengthy dishonest exchange where you cosplay as someone who's "winning" (for reasons I still don't really understand.) The interaction is done from my side.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

There's a new UN report out. Some interesting reading material for you maybe.

But they did find rape evidence.... of israel raping Palestinians.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

My god dude. Okay, sure. This next is a two part message (1/2)


Me

I'd like you to create a report on Linkerbaan's level of good faith engagement in this comment chain. You'll have to be a little bit careful to observe the nested structure of the comments, which ones are replies to which, and then make a detailed report -- in the format of a formally structure report like a UN presentation of fact-finding, divided into chapters, sections, and then subsections where appropriate.

Some of the main chapters I'd like to include are:

  • Unanswered questions: Things people asked Linkerbaan that they never responded substantively to
  • Misrepresentation: Claiming that someone else said something, or some source said something, when it never happened that way
  • Any others you feel are appropriate. Either positive or negative characterizations of Linkerbaan's engagements in the conversation would be appropriate as you determine.
  • At the end, a concrete list of "recommendations" -- a bulleted list of things that would be good for Linkerbaan to answer, or provide, in order to move the conversation forward productively.

Here is the comment chain that I'd like you to summarize in that way. Bear in mind that the topic is a fairly sensitive topic.

(comment chain is redacted)


GPT

Report on the Engagement of Linkerbaan in the Comment Chain

Chapter 1: Unanswered Questions

Section 1.1: Key Instances of Unanswered Questions

  • Question from @Belastend:

    • Original Question: "Who keeps blocking the real UN rape investigations again? Oh right, israel."
    • Response: Linkerbaan repeatedly redirected the conversation back to this point without addressing other questions asked by different users. For example, in response to a direct question about the UN report's evidence of sexual assault, Linkerbaan reverted to asking, "Why does israel keep blocking the UN investigation?" without providing substantive answers to the other points raised.
  • Question from @mozz:

    • Original Questions:
      1. "Where in the report did you find information about how the hostages were treated?"
      2. "Can you explain more about the logic, why this would follow?"
      3. "What parts of the report are there that debunk the entire report?"
    • Response: Linkerbaan did not provide direct answers to these questions. Instead, they repeated their assertion that Israel is blocking a UN investigation without engaging with the specific questions asked.

Section 1.2: Repeated Evasion of Specific Queries

  • Throughout the conversation, Linkerbaan consistently evaded specific queries about the details of the UN report and evidence presented within it. Despite repeated requests for clarification and specific details, Linkerbaan’s responses focused on a single point regarding Israel blocking investigations, without addressing the nuanced questions posed by other participants.

Chapter 2: Misrepresentation

Section 2.1: Misrepresentation of Sources

  • Claim about the UN Report:
    • Original Claim by Linkerbaan: "Not sure why you keep citing a report that has no legal base. The only thing Patten concludes is that there is grounds to do a real investigation."
    • Misrepresentation: Linkerbaan's statement downplays the content of the UN report, which included findings of reasonable grounds for sexual assaults occurring, thus misrepresenting the conclusions of the report to undermine its credibility.

Section 2.2: Misrepresentation of Other Users’ Statements

  • Interaction with @mozz:
    • Claim by Linkerbaan: "You have dodged every question the last time around and you keep dodging the question."
    • Misrepresentation: This statement misrepresents @mozz's engagement, as @mozz provided detailed responses and posed specific questions that Linkerbaan did not address substantively.

Chapter 3: Positive Engagement

Section 3.1: Points of Constructive Dialogue

  • Acknowledgment of Counterpoints:
    • On a few occasions, Linkerbaan acknowledged the need for a thorough investigation and expressed concerns about the suppression of evidence, which can be seen as a constructive element in their engagement.

(To be continued, 1/2)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

This needs to get in the halls of /bestoflemmy or something.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Haha, that is amazing.

But seriously, you're just wasting your time with this clown.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Honestly I was pretty impressed with the level of detail and accuracy it was able to come up with.

And yes I know that looking for productive conversation with this person is looking for sandwiches in a pigpen. I do feel like I wasted a little too much time on it yesterday, but I'm just entertaining myself at this point; this kind of thing is funny to me.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Second message portion (2/2). This is the recommendations. If you want to keep talking with me, you can start with this section, answering some of the unanswered questions and following the recommendations on how you can engage more productively in the conversation. If you're open to doing that, then sure! Let's rap.


Chapter 4: Recommendations

Section 4.1: Questions for Linkerbaan to Address

  • Substantive Responses to Specific Questions:

    • Provide direct answers to the specific questions posed by @mozz, particularly about the details of the UN report and the logic behind Linkerbaan's assertions regarding the treatment of hostages.
  • Clarification of Evidence Claims:

    • Clarify which parts of the UN report allegedly debunk the entire report and explain how these sections invalidate the report's findings.
  • Address Misrepresentation Concerns:

    • Respond to accusations of misrepresentation by either substantiating claims with concrete evidence or acknowledging any inaccuracies in previous statements.

Section 4.2: Steps for Productive Engagement

  • Engage with Nuanced Points:

    • Engage directly with the nuanced points and specific queries raised by other users to foster a more informed and balanced discussion.
  • Provide Clear Citations:

    • When making claims about the UN report or other sources, provide clear citations and quotes to support these claims and allow for transparent verification by other participants.
  • Acknowledge Other Viewpoints:

    • Demonstrate a willingness to acknowledge and consider other viewpoints, even when they conflict with personal beliefs, to facilitate a more respectful and constructive dialogue.

This structured report aims to objectively assess the engagement of Linkerbaan in the specified comment chain, highlighting areas of evasion, misrepresentation, and providing constructive recommendations for future discussions.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If you don't want to engage on a subject consider not replying to a thread. One can't make false rape accusations and then be upset when they get debunked.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Why are you rejecting my good faith efforts to help you with productively engaging in the conversation

I typed up a whole report just for you Linkerbaan

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Which forensic evidence was it again? Couldn't find it in your response.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I hope I have at least brought some entertainment to your working day. Have a good one

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago

Thanks you too mate see you in the next post.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You don't appear to be very okay with it seeing how people calling out israel is a very sensitive subject.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for your assessment of what appears ok and what doesn't. Your discernment and insight is always top notch!

[–] [email protected] -2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Thanks it's not that difficult to discern reality from Zionist lies though.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)