this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
44 points (76.8% liked)
World News
32087 readers
989 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Calling either Russia or Ukraine Nazi is just historically incorrect. Neither are run by national socialist workers parties, which is what Nazi used to mean.
Of both only one is the aggressor in a bloody war against their neighbor, seeking territorial gain. The to and fro accusations of being Nazi really don't help. There's racist people in both sides some who actually think Nazi insignia are bad ass.
What really matters is actions, and from my limited understanding, that needs research after this had finished, is that the Russian side is more involved in cruelty, and that the Ukrainians show restraint and try to step up to try and uphold war conventions.
Actions are more important than words. None of them are Nazis, some of them may act like them.
On the one hand, the Nazis traditionally fought communists in Germany during Weimar. But let's not forget the Soviet pact with Nazi Germany, which only ended with Germany's betrayal of Soviet Russia. Further, both were horrific dictatorships which used blatant lies and propaganda and widespread terror against its own citizens.
See the books: "Ministry of Illusion", by Eric Rentschler. And, "Projections of War", by Thomas Doherty.
As for the rise of the Third Reich, see: "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", by William Shirer, and "The Politics of Cultural Despair", by Fritz Stern.
The leadership of Ukraine is not Nazi and is not totalitarian. The leadership of Russia is.
I consider your position to be deluded.
EDIT: A thorough rading of Hannah Arendt, such as, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" is in order too.
I'll return the favor. I agree that Russian goverment is totalitarian and autocratic, with a touch of cult of personality. I'd consider it fascist and blatantly racist. But not Nazi, there's no need for that term.
Fascist but not Nazi. Curious hair to split.
Yup, fascism is a way better term. Doesn't get confused with other political blends.
For instance Stalin and Putin have very different political ideologies (and Hitler for that matter) however the term fascism fits them all.
Gets rid of the historical discussion of both Russia and Ukraine being on which side as well.
Can you describe these "different political ideologies" between Stalin and Purin, and how that matters to the absurd claim Ukraine is "Nazi" because some people wear insignia you don't like, verses widespread murder of civilians and the kidnapping of children - which you call merely, "fascist," as perpetrated by Russia under Putin's rule?
Stalin believed he was a communist. Some people even but into that today. He actually wrote a lot to have communism fit his particular brand of authoritarianism.
Putin is more nihilistic. He believes that he can recreate tsar Peters' Russia. Or so I think, he doesn't really publicize his ideas.
Of course calling each other Nazi is absurd. Why not Putinist? Why did evil today need bear the name of what evil was ninety years ago? Call them murderers racists, kidnappers. Why do we feel we need the term Nazi?
Look if they all start wearing SS uniforms, singing the Horst Wessel song, start obscure groups of Germanic mythology and read mein Kampf, then you can call them Nazi. This is an evil that needs a new name.
Because otherwise the other side will always point at the Ukrainians that did help the Nazis and say 'you did that too!' And that's a useless discussion.
You confuse symbolism in your political opponents with actual conduct that mirrors the horrors of Nazi Germany by the Russian government under the dictator, Putin. The symbolism is used for a slippery slope argument to the very horrors we see Russia committing today.
This is why you're deluded. See: Korzybski. "Science and Sanity," or his commonly used phrase, "the map is not the territory".
That's exactly what I say.
The leadership of Ukraine is not Nazi or totalitarian. Russia under Purin and China under Xi Jinping is totalitarian.
You make a fundamental category error.
Noi don't. I didn't call the leadership of the Ukraine totalitarian, you are obviously misreading me.
All in saying that it's unhelpful to call either side Nazi.
I'm up for calling the Russian regime all the other names (authoritarian, totalist). If you listen to Zelenski, he doesn't call the Russians Nazis, why? Because you get stuck in historical rethoric.
Just call them Russians. That should become the new bad guy word. Read back what I said, and you'll see.