News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
view the rest of the comments
Anti worker. Riiight.
That's just you speaking the Big Three's mantra. If they'd gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn't need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70's, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it's time they did.
This isn't about technology at all. It's about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don't get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can't work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that's anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there's much more balance between them and workers.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don't think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.
@Buelldozer is right, he's just being extra spicy about it.
UAW labor doesn't cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That's before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
That's because they don't have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That's why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Toyota plants aren't unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
"paid well" only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they're paid relatively well. They're not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
They are not.
This exposé is a bit suspect, or at least this part is which makes me question the integrity as a whole:
Average human walks 3mph. This dude apparently never sleeps.
The whole thing reads like a corporate "uNioNS BaD" article
This is no different than the 70s tho, when the oil crisis and subsequent importation of compact vehicles forced the Big Three to mothball the 'boats'.
BYD would likely want to gauge support in America before committing to building factories, especially in a nation where land prices have skyrocketed.
???
.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
You're darn right I'm being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It's astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It's disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I'm a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn't going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it's supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I'm of the opinion that we can't expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won't represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don't lap up corporate propaganda.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing “blue collar” workers again won’t cut it, because many of us are not that now.
What you suggested is what I imagine. Thank you for articulating it!
They think they're leftists. But they're too "me first" on consuming to realize they're not.
Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?
You realize it's "cheap" in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?
I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese "New Energy" vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!
Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well. It’s not just the Chinese government. For my purchase, the direct incentives alone were $11,500 (and that doesn’t count the tens of billions in indirect subsidies) - if a legacy manufacturer could make an EV for even double the cost of BYD, I’d buy it since my cost would be the same
I’ll give you higher wages and move the goalposts toward you to account for it ….. let’s say double the price. Where is my flood of EVs from legacy manufacturers for no more than double the price of Chinese manufacturers?
What you refer to as "heavily" (~15B across four years) is what China spent per year every year from 2009 through 2022, for a total of 173 Billion dollars. Their latest package, announced last September, will have them spending 73$ Billion across the next four years. Their Government has literally been subsidizing EV production at 3-4 times the rate of the United States for over a decade! Yeah, that's a totally level playing field. No shenanigans there, no Sir.
As the article notes the Seagull, rebadged as a Dolphin Mini, sells for $21,000 in Latin America so you aren't going to get it for $24,000 in the United States and most especially not if it's built here where they can't employ people for 5 USD an hour.
You don't have to like it, or me, but it's completely irrefutable that the 12,000 price is only possible due enormous government subsidies and cheap Chinese labor. Allowing those vehicles into the United States is the end of all domestic auto manufacturing, not just the Big 3, and all of the workers who are employed there. We already watched this play out with Steel, Textiles, and other manufacturing based industries.
"Literally"? Really? People lusting after BYD products have no noses now?
That's the only thing you respond to?