this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
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30 fps on a not very good looking game full of bugs
Cant wait to pirate it
I never get this stance. If it's not worth paying for even on sale it's not worth your time to play or pirate.
Disagree. It takes very little time to pirate something. Anything.
Also, there are a lot of numbers between 0 and 60 that someone may be willing to pay to play a game. But for a modern game with DLC and stuff, more like 120.
Why support our play those games. There are developers and games out there that are far better than the AAA mess that gets delivered year after year. There are more games on itch than you could play on your lifetime but you'd rather waste time pirating games that you don't like enough to pay for.
I used to do that a lot and realized that most of the games I played weren't worth my time.
Also most games go on sale for at least half off. So if there is another price point you want, just wait. Actually support the developers.
It's like the gamer equivalent of hatefucking. I don't get it either.
Like, if you know you're not going to enjoy something why the hell force yourself to do it, if it's just going to end up with you complaining about it on the internet?
Why is everyone so worried about what other people play? Weirdly controlling.
I'm more against pirating and using excuses to justify it rather than what other people play. If it's not worth paying for and supporting the developers it's not worth your time to play.
Piracy is literally the only method by which a lot of media is preserved in the era of subscription services and abandoned properties. It's a public service that ensures that some of the most significant art of the last century isn't lost.
The archives of pirates are a digital museum for a culture that can't be bothered to preserve its own legacy.
preserving it years to decades after release is vastly different than pirating and playing it the same year or 2 after release. Also when it comes to preserving it, nothing stops you from actually buying a copy and preserving it personally for yourself. If this conversation was about preserving the games it'd be very different but it's not, it's about taking a game without paying for it. In the end, you are just trying to justify stealing from artists.
You're not buying a copy, but a license revocable at any moment, not to mention that you need a service to leverage that license, too, so when that service either dies or prevents you from accessing what you paid for, you can kiss goodbye to it, and your only option is to cash out again.
Still doesn't prevent you from giving developers money for their work.
I'm actually not giving them shit because they're salaried and have been (undner)compensated for their labor during the course of their employment. They're not going to suddenly eat less if I simply don't pay for the product - this is identical to watching a trailer of a game and then deciding that you'll completely ignore the game; no purchase was made, yet no property was stolen, because the game is still intact. It's not the same as coming to a store and stealing a copy, preventing others to pay for it and bring profits for the store.
Again more excuses. It all depends on the scale of the studio. Lots of studios give bonuses and profits to the workers for them taking a smaller salary. Getting it for free means you likely would pay for it on sale just to check it out. Lots of the games profits come from lower sale prices. You are stealing because you would have paid for it in some way otherwise. You might argue you wouldn't but we both know that's a huge lie, if it's not then it's not worth playing at all.
I'm sure you know better than I do what I'd spend money on to be so confident in your claim that'd I'd pick up on a sale Anyway. Not to mention that sometimes you just don't have the option to purchase the digital product because the vendors aren't selling it you, as is the case with some counties and companies.
Some practices also just don't sit well with you and you're basically voting with your wallet by not paying for the game.
As for the theft argument, let's say you have an expectation that I should you give you a certain sum of money, but it's just that, an expectation - like I promise to wire transfer you billions of dollars, plus some fees and taxes, but I never do; did I just steal from you? You have absolutely everything you had before, but didn't receive the money you were expecting.
Or I made an identical copy of something you have and am now using it, too - you still have the original, though, you're no worse off in any way because the original object is still cometely intact, and I would have never gotten it otherwise if it wasn't for the identical copy that took you no effort. Did I take the original from you, i.e. stole anything from you?
Listen, you're going to make all the excuses you can to protect your mental state. It's fine. I used to pirate almost every game that came out and then I realized what I was doing. You might or might not one day figure it out for yourself but at this point, you aren't engaging in good faith.
I'll leave you with a simple video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2R5xV3bbY think of it in the same vain as pirating a video game and you might see how artists aren't able to continue living off of the games they make.
Except I'm not profiting off the games I pirate, and neither does anybody else these days (hasn't since 00s).
You don't even see the dissonance in your arguments: you're trying to tell me how bad it is and how nobody should pirate of they can't or don't want to pay, but the benefactors don't get paid either way, but I case of the latter, we're somehow not talking about ripping someone off; it's a sale that's not being made either way, and assuming that the people pirating the content would've bought it if it wasn't for piracy is just wrong as evident by a lot of research done on the topic.
I still haven't seen your arguments as to how exactly it hurts people outside not closing the deal that, again, wouldn't have been closed anyway had piracy not been an option.
That's not true at all, the only decent study to suggest that was a self-reported survey done by the EU that has since been debunked.
https://corsearch.com/content-library/blog/does-piracy-impact-sales-a-look-at-the-data/
So first that isn't true, people pirate games and stream/create videos of them to gain views which converts to monetization. Second, we can both agree you gain something. Does money have to be the thing you gain to see it as wrong or does enjoyment count as well? Or are we in such a monetary society that we must have monetary gain from work you didn't make for it to be wrong?
Overall, the end of it is 1) even if you pinky promise that you wouldn't have bought the game (the fact you would play it says otherwise because if you would enjoy it then it's really a dollar price argument, which is covered by sales but ignoring that obvious flaw in your argument...) you 2) still end up contributing to a culture that makes it easier for people to get games for free. You can't speak for all pirates and there are clearly many (90% of) studies showing that these folks are reducing sales numbers. 3) as we have seen just copying something can hurt something. This is why trademarks and copyrights even exist. It's why the courts don't stop at monetary gain. If you break copyright even for personal use, legally the copyright holder can come after you. Sometimes pirating produces an inferior copy of the game. People going to the pirated game to even judge it to see if they should buy the full game means the developers are hoping that the pirates didn't completely ruin the binary somehow. Demos exist for a lot of games out there since Steam started Next Fest which features demos of games. Steam has a 2-week or 2-hour of game-time refund policy. The excuse of "I just want to check it out" for pirating is debunked.
So as a game developer, pay for our games. If you can't afford it, message us. Give us insight into what is fair. If your region is unfairly priced, let us know! That stuff is automatic on Steam and sometimes really unfair. Price points can be adjusted until you can feel happy with your purchase. A lot of indie devs simply want people to enjoy their games fairly. After all, we all still have to eat.
Oh, now that's the real culprit! That honestly explains a lot in this conversation and makes me see you less of a corporate ally for absolutely no good.
As for the "piracy le hurts" reports, I'm really not surprised that you were able to find these, mostly debunking anything stating otherwise. As if we didn't live in the massively lobbied society where corporations and money-turners have much more leverage than anything else to manipulate the popular opinion on anything that "hurts" them, be it anything legit or simply perceived.
I don't really know where you got that from, as any content creator that has any worthwhile numbers to make their monetization off of pirated content a problem, in fact, never mentions anything positive above piracy. Following your logic, though, are these content creators supposed to share their revenue with you if their content is based on your game?
By that logic, I can't share games with my friends and family, because while they get some fun time, they pay nothing for the game. I'm sure that's an absurd idea even in your books - consider every pirate my friend and family, especially when it comes to distributors and publishers I have zero respect towards. Sometimes a game is made using and promoting damaging practices, and while the game is good in its own merits, I choose not to support the developers or decision-makers monetarily.
While I'm at it, you seem to think that I just don't for any games, like, ever, which I assure is not the case - I have a massive Steam library and some games I bought in EGS and GOG, many of which I deliberately bought as a thank you and a sign of respect only after I've played/beaten their pirated copies.
Demos, though, are still a minority. Starfield doesn't have a demo, neither does Cyberpunk 2077, nor most (if not all) games that have prices so high that people even consider piracy in the first place. You strike me as a smaller developer that I may actually find during Steam Next Fest (love these, by the way, barely skip any), and you may provide demos, for which I say thank you, and it may even earn a purchase from me specifically; however, it still is an exception more than it is a rule these days.
If you have any games on Steam, I'll be happy to check 'em out, either during a Steam Next Fest or otherwise. Most likely, you're not charging an absurd amount of money on a bunch of lies and predatory practices, and if that's the case, I won't think twice about paying for a digital revocable ticket that I can only access via a single gateway (being Steam), but you won't suddenly find yourself with less money if I simply choose to ignore your game, and you certainly won't start losing money from your bank account if I download multiple copies for free or even make multiple copies of a legally purchased one.
But if you're Bethesda, telling me that I can do impressive rounds of exploring in your game for dozens or hundreds of hours, or even months, or even years, but I have to pay at least $60 to enjoy the game... only to find out that this massive selling piece was a lie and once I've seen one POI, I've basically seen every POI of that type, down to enemy, object, and loot placement, yet you're still going to sell me DLC(s) and expect the community to patch the game for free, then sorry (not sorry), I'm not going to spend any money on your product and make you think that treating your customers like that is okay in any capacity. Is it possible that I enjoy the game despite such flaws? Yes, but it doesn't mean it's worth the money for me, not now, not later, because it's a predatory marketing strategy built on deceiving your buyers, and if you believe that pirating games hurts the companies that are supposed to receive the money, then I'm happy to pirate their games thousands of times to punish them for being absolute dickheads.
The reports and courts supporting those with the big wallets in this regard is identical to how climate change is still a prevalent problem that's being put on shoulders of people like you and me, while oil and gas and tech and other industries get subsidies, leverage, and bail-outs from the governments.
I don't really see anyone defending corporations for no reason. Everyone defends their own way of life or potential way of life.
I understand your point but that's kind of a weak, non-factual way of debunking them which what I linked goes into details and facts.
I've seen it with a few streamers, it's uncommon but it happens. Now we are also seeing the rise of paid pirating platforms which are clearly making money off of others' work as well.
Yeah, that's absurd but the point is that clearly there is a line there and it's not yours to draw. It's the copyright holders. Some people offer Steam family sharing, being there physically or sharing a Steam account requires 1 copy of the game and can only be played by one device at a given time. That's the line developers draw and it's on us to determine how we want to share our artwork. I think that's pretty fair. If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it's not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don't lose the original copy.
To be honest, I've met a lot of pirates who don't buy a single thing. There are certainly lots of pirates who do not buy anything for whatever reason.
Price is relative. I'd also think that demos aren't a minority anymore by count but by AAA release, you don't see many demos because they don't need a demo. Most people will watch the marketing or gameplay videos and decide from coverage. The smaller indie developers (yes, like myself, I tried AAA for a while and felt like a cog, go figure) need demos to prove their game is worthy of a purchase and thus they feel to me that they've become more common. Although most multiplayer games can't really have demos.
https://www.underflowstudios.com/games These are the games I've worked on. The Away Team: Lost Exodus is the one that I've made within my own studio. It's likely to be so small to not even have a pirated version. You can buy it on Steam or Itch, DRM-free and with the majority of the code for the missions, characters, and textures in loose files to allow for modification. It's completely DRM-free and in theory, you can buy it on Itch, and get a Steam key. Both versions will provide you with a game that's just raw files. I choose to draw my line around consumers having a lot of freedom but I also respect those who don't.
I mean at that point why play it though? I figured you'd just see the gameplay videos and move on. Maybe you want to go in entirely blank? Honestly, and controversially I feel the same about a recent purchase I made, Red Dead Redemption 2. I played 26 hours and feels like I barely played 2 hours worth of enjoyable content for myself. That said, my friend's dog did the mo-cap for the dogs in the game and it's nice to see.
I can't disagree. You should always look at these reports and rulings yourself and form your own opinions.
We're getting really lengthy here, and while that was fun while it lasted, we're clearly both set in our ways, so I'll answer to only a few topics that don't simply revolve our beliefs. I know we're just going to back and forth, ultimately saying "I'm right, you're wrong" anyway.
You've proven my point by saying that despite having spent 26 hours playing the game, barely 2 of them were worth it, and no Steam refund is going to listen to your definition of the amount of hours that count for an actual refund. You had no demo to try, and no amount of gameplay videos is going to answer the questions like "How would I play the game?" and "How would I enjoy that?"; to a certain extent, demos don't either, because they're not a complete experience and complete experiences count, but they'll definitely give you a much better feeling of whether you should spend your money on the game.
That's one reason to pirate a AAA game: you know you might like it, but you don't want to become a metric on another chart for the sharks to pat each other on the back and say "See? We did it! We were right! They bought the game!", even if for a 0.001% of the original price.
Kudos for casting your dog there, though. Good boy/girl.
Now, we all generally denounce people making money off any sort of pirated content, be it cinema, books, games, or anything else. It's about a lot of things, really, but none of them is profit - certainly not these days.
I buy a book you wrote. Would you insist that I don't share that book with anyone else and instead tell them to go get their own copy? You'll most likely say 'no' once again, that's something we both agree on, and a game is no different. Nobody is taking your book away from you, it still is yours in every regard, but you don't get to control whether people can lend it. It's sharing, i.e. caring, and sharing often leads to increased sales and exposure through various channels.
You even said it yourself that "there is a line there and it's not yours to draw", yet in the same paragraph you say "If I make something, I can determine how I share it, it’s not up to anyone else to take my creation from me, even if that means I don’t lose the original copy."
Make what you will of it, but you stumbling like that over there clearly shows how neither approach is universally correct and simple, especially given the amount of people and their individual circumstances involved in each case of sharing, piracy, or buying a single copy exclusively.
I should clarify, I haven't pirated a game since prototype 1. At least a game that I could buy. I have pirated games I have emulated, but this is clearly a different thing.
You can also use pirating to send a message. If a company does something really bad, like loot boxes or micro transactions, you can pirate take money they likely got from someone who's addicted to gambling.
It's not about being worth playing - it's about not being worth the money asked for, along with the scummy practices. Sometimes it's a stance.
And for some, it's purely financial decision.
Games go on sale faster than any entertainment. All you really have to do is wait. Hell to play starfield is 10 dollars. That 10 dollars also gets you access to hundreds of other games.
For some, $10 is not a sum they can spend on non-essentials. Some don't want to wait for various legitimate reasons. Some want to be able to try the game out before making up their mind on whether they'll pay for it. Some just don't care about giving money to a massive corporation that's definitely not suffering from the lack of money, for one reason or another: one of them, a very prominent one, is to avoid supporting the greedy corporate practices with your wallet, such as the lack of proper optimization and control over the graphical fidelity wrapped up in the "Oh, we just wanna preserve the look for everybody" bullshit.
Lastly, if you really insist on defending paying against piracy, you should know that pirates either never pay in the first place, so it's not like some poor big corp lost some sales, or they're one of the most consistently paying customers for a given media, as has been the case for decades now.
As for whether $10 is a lot... it's really not up to you to decide when someone can or cannot afford to spend their money on. Not to mention that there's no reason to defend a company that has more money than you can imagine, ripping off its employees only because of greed rather than lack of funds, yet they still decide to outsource basically the entire game to a gazillion of other studios, resulting in a game that's kinda good, but very flawed with massive inconsistencies and "play it safe" decisions coupled with good-for-nothing premium editions and confirmed upcoming DLCs only to squeeze more money out of their consumers.
So if this was an indie game you'd never pirate it?
If the game's worth it and I can easily obtain it legally at a sensible price, the pirating the game isn't my first urge for sure... Again, if I pirate something I was never going to buy in the first place for one reason or the other, there's no theft to speak of.
Maybe I could transfer you several billion dollars right now, plus some change to cover up for the fees and taxes that may come up, but I just don't - would you say I stole that money from you? You probably wouldn't, because that was just a expectation and you never had the money in the first place, so there was no way for me to take it, and the fact that you expected to have more, didn't get anything as a result, and did not actually lose anything does not constitute a theft.