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This Christian minister made a case against same-sex marriage in the 90s. He just apologized. (www.lgbtqnation.com)

submitted 1 month ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 month ago (2 children)

A lot of hate on this guy. Not saying it's not deserved. But it has to start somewhere.

“My exegesis of those half dozen passages, it hasn’t changed. I think the Bible says what it says, and disapproves of gay sex, full stop,” Hays continued. “But there’s a very arbitrary selectivity about picking out those two verses in Leviticus as the foundation for an opinion on this subject.”

I used to be a fundamentalist right wing Christian Republican. I see myself in this sentence.

The love of Christ that Christians say they have was nowhere near their hatred of "the gays". Jesus says nothing of Homosexuality so Christians hang their politics on two really obscure verses in the Old Testament.

He's taking steps in the right direction. He still has a ways to go to make amends.

But the fact that he's publicly "coming out" with his apology should be seen as a good thing because he's likely going to get bomb and death threats from the fundamentalists.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 month ago

Apologies are a great start, but if he truly means it then he should be prepared to do as Christ would. He should make it a point to fight for rights and welfare of the community he has harmed for the rest of his life.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A Nazi who apologizes for being a Nazi gets an "about time, but not enough" and not a "thank you."

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If it convinces other Nazis to stop being Nazis, then I'll give a "thank you." Not that I'm putting them on a pedestal. But I'll acknowledge that change is hard and admitting you were wrong is hard.

Having said that, I know it's a contentious issue. The rest of us managed to not be Nazis in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Why would it convince them?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Honestly, I think there's a portion of extremists that just don't feel like they have an option to quit. Either because of embarrassment or that's their only social network. I support giving these people an avenue to correct themselves and integrate into society as easily as possible, within reason. Similar to how I believe we should make an effort to integrate former convicts, within reason.

Actually, we do celebrate former convicts integrating back into society.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

“Where I now stand on the question is that Scripture, read as narrative, offers a vision of a God who is dynamic and personal, and can constantly surprise us by reshaping what we thought we knew as settled matters.”

what a meaningless word salad. God didn't write a new book - you did. you redefined your personal beliefs, probably based on empathy found in the real world, and you're now retconning your God to fit. It's almost like your Bible actually means jack shit. fucking religion man.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

“I want to repent of what I wrote before,”

He apologized for what he wrote.

You need to let people change their mind. You want it to be easy for Christians to say "I was wrong". By attacking them for doing so you raise a barrier to change.

His "word salad" means something to other Christians. If it helps them to also change their minds then that's great! He's likely to be far more effective at it than atheists yelling "your bible means Jack shit".

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm not criticizing the man, I'm criticizing religion. if you can unilaterally change your moral values, what is the point? That's exactly how the rest of the secular world works.

and i’m not really concerned with changing conservative christian minds here in the comments section of lemmy. if christians get a little butthurt from reading my comment, so be it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 month ago

Our member numbers are dropping, we better change our messages a bit to attract more donations.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Fuck you, asshole. Way too little, way too late. "Sorry I intentionally crashed that plane into that skyscraper. I repent."

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I tend to be more pragmatic. Nobody is born wise and everyone fucks up (some more than others). For guys like this I like to take the approach of "Thank you, now what are you going to do about it? ". Repentance is good, but not enough. You have to actively work to right your wrongs. If he is truly sorry that he wronged and harmed gay people for decades, then he better be prepared to fight with all his might for the LGBTQ+ community for the rest of his life.

Some sins are so great that you will never be able to make amends, but you have to try.

EDIT: Mild rewording.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah that’s my stance. Some people do a lot of bad before doing good. We shouldn’t blindly trust but we shouldn’t disincentivize change.

Most who do harm will never do enough good to overcome it, but they can do a lot more good than they otherwise would, and they can do harm too. Tammy Faye Bakker was once not a good person, a conservative evangelical preacher and embezzler married to a rapist. When her and her husband’s lives fell apart she changed and wound up being a voice of progressive Christianity going as far as to hug a gay man with aids on television in the height of the aids crisis. She died speaking and listening to those who had been persecuted by American Christianity, and cherished by Christians among them. Her ex husband took a different path, and to this day is a bigot who sells bulk food for preppers.

We shouldn’t let the right wing be the only people who will accept those who want to repent and change. We should instead offer the option of penance and restorative justice, forgiveness that means something because it’s actually earned

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I agree with you in many cases. This goes well beyond a fuckup. Writing and publishing an entire book is not a fuckup. It's actively pushing hatred. That does not deserve a thank you just because he apologized. Apologizing is the bare minimum and as such requires only acknowledgement.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Agreed. The apology should be the starting line, not the finish line. This dude better become the fiercest advocate for the LGBTQ+ community if he truly wants to chip away at that karma debt before he croaks.

Also, there are always cases where there is no redeeming. I am sorry but putting a man on the moon does not cover your Nazi debt.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago

Exactly. If George W. Bush held a press conference tomorrow to tell us how really sorry he was for all the war crimes, all I would say was, "it's about time he said that but I don't forgive him."

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Indoctrination is a very powerful force. I am glad he broke free from some of the chains and saw the error of his ways, but he has a lot of work to do to make amends, especially after being such a hateful asshole for so long, having such reach and such a voice.

Some people manage to break free and it should be celebrated and supported, because often times, especially for teens, trying to break free leads to excommunication, and becoming a pariah, and after your teens, changing becomes way, way harder.

Sincerely, a formerly indoctrinated homophobe, now an atheist, gay and fierce defender of many rights.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

No offense, but that does ring hollow for those of us raised to be horrid that didn't drink that poison down.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

The same water that softens the potato, hardens the egg. Not all of us were raised in the same conditions, not all of us had the same factors weighting on us.

It is not about overlooking your strength, it is about having some empathy for those of us who aren't as strong as you, yet still fought to get out of that vortex of hatred.

Trust me, it was not my intention to overlook your struggles, and I sincerely apologize.