Why are we allies with Israel again?
this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
160 points (98.8% liked)
World News
39023 readers
2332 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News [email protected]
Politics [email protected]
World Politics [email protected]
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Israel has a huge intelliegence network that the US help them build by giving them billions of dollars.
The US relations with that area is already really poor. Pulling support of Israel will bring the US back decades of relationship building, billions of dollars invested, and losing the location. The location is important because Israel is in the center, near water, and isn't an island.
Morally, being allies with Israel is not good, logically it makes sense.
Sounds a lot like sunken cost fallacy. We might be better off making other allies.
The president role is 7 years. Knesset seat is 4 years. Would you give up decades of relationship building for one presidential term?
Also how often would you switch allies if they commit genocide defined by the Genocide Convention?
Over an active genocide? I would immediately end a friendship with a country and as many times as it takes to not be responsible for enabling a genocide. Allies don’t let allies commit genocide, everyone knows that. Besides it takes more than a president to do a genocide.
How much time needs to pass before a genocide is no longer an "active genocide"?
I knew this would come up, which is why i specified this. Might as well as cut the head off the “every country has committed genocide at some point” argument. Not every country is actively committing genocide, Israel is. America is their chef supplier of power. America is actively Shielding them from the consequences of committing genocide.
So we should stop backing a country that is actively committing genocide full stop. No money, no weapons, no blocking sanctions, no threatening countries and organizations trying to help the victims. This is the literal bare minimum, as we should be sanctioning them, we should be guaranteeing humanitarian aid to Palestinians.
When is it not an active genocide? When the genocide stops.
Let's say we stopped being allies with them and stopped funding. So if they stop tomorrow, then the US should have them as allies again?
Possibly, at that point it would be based on trust that the administration would not continue genocide actions. If Israel changed the ruling party and immediately stopped their genocide then that would be the fastest means to return. I have issues with the land grab into Palestine for the same reason i side with Ukraine. But genocide gives me more than just issues.
Okay you have an issue with the land grab so you stop being allies with Israel. They won't stop the genocide. Israel will continue with the weapons they already have. Now they think they absolutely need to take over Palestine because they can't have neighbors that are controlled by Hamas.
Was that the right choice? Should the US stop the genocide by sending troops and money to government of Palestine? Maybe the money that was intended for Israel?
That sounds like an abusive relationship to me, regarding Israel. But if we could not stop Israel from committing genocide no matter what, then i would have us not enable it. If they have the resources available to commit genocide without our help, then they don’t need our help covering their defense, economy, nor political sway either.
Would actively sending our money and troops to Palestine to attack Israel be the correct play? It’s not so cut and dry as the Ukraine/ Russia war. But that money could go tword humanitarian efforts in Palestine, i am not so much concerned about the Palestinian government as i am the Palestinian people.
Israel is killing humanitarians in Palestine. If Israel kills Americans, should the US declare war?
I did not know it was so many, but i know they were specifically targeted.
I guess i should answer your real question, what would it take before the US should go to war with Israel? I am hesitant, they are possibly a nuclear armed power, and a war would cost even more innocent lives. But if i had to choose i would have already effectively done so.
This article is from 7 months ago so it is more. Some people just want to feed children and their trucks are being blown up. It is fucking horrible.
I ask you these questions because these are the questions I have asked myself and I always end with the same conclusion. Israel is an information super power. The US needs Israel more than vice versa. The infromation provided by Israel has helped keep the US and other allies safe.
The question I get asked is "if that information is so valuable, then why didn't they keep themselves safe?" They did know about the attacks. Israel allowed the attack to happen thinking it would allow them in the eyes of the public to take Palestine.
Wikipedia link - look at the "Events leading to the attack" and the "Israeli intelligence failure" sections.
I agree that Isreal getting attacked was needed to begin the land grab and to maintain power of the political party, and to attempt to justify murder. I also agree that one reason the US is allied to Isreal its for a for hold in the region for us to project power. But that is about it. I don’t hold that America needs this partnership, to such a degree to overlook genocide.
It being that important, surely somebody in the US government and intelligence have thought that they might not be abusing only that importance for funds, but the ties themselves for influence. In the sense of spying at the US, corruption and such.
load more comments
(1 replies)
After WW2 everyone felt really bad. And it was a west-leaning country in a region full of oil and big trade routes.
Most of the calculus has slowly changed over the years. The Congressionally-passed treaties all still remain though.
And it was a west-leaning country in a region full of oil and big trade routes.
Other way around - their loyalties weren't firmly lodged with either of the superpowers, so the US in the 70s and 80s put a lot of time and effort into wooing them.
Their loyalties still aren't lodged with anyone, but we keep sucking them off anyway.
It seems people forgot USS Liberty
Their loyalties still aren’t lodged with anyone, but we keep sucking them off anyway.
Well, I shit at Israel every day, but they would be nuts to "lodge their loyalties" when that means loss of such leverage.
Contrary to the delusions of realpolitik types, international relations are a matter of relations, not purely moment-to-moment vulture capitalist behavior. Israel is coasting on internal factors within the US government at present - the lack of actual mutual loyalty means that, should those internal factors (Israeli dark money and the political influence of evangelical millenarians) ever weaken, the institutions of the US will see little reason not to throw Israel to the wolves.
Israeli dark money
... is something important enough to kill a 100 JFKs for.
It's a state sporting F35s and such.
and the political influence of evangelical millenarians
Can't speak about them, I don't live in the US and the fact of such a group existing is wild for me.
… is something important enough to kill a 100 JFKs for.
To the Israelis, maybe. To Americans, Israeli money has become a polarizing issue over the past decade.
It’s a state sporting F35s and such.
Man, plenty of US allies are involved in the F-35 program and the US doesn't bend over backwards for them. It's really not that important in the grand scheme of US-Israeli relations.
Those plenty are not so numerous if we consider how many nation-states there are on the globe.
And why do we think they need more weapons to "defend" themselves if they're threatening to obliterate multiple other countries?
If you take a country "back to the stone age" it absolutely requires attacks on civilian infrastructure.
So any country that respects international law and human life could not in good conscience give them weapons or support to do this.
Gosh I wonder what Biden will do...
He can't hear you he's too busy sending them more weapons and support.
Don't forget—this is a nuke threat. Israel has nukes.
At this point I don't know which country is more ridiculous, Israel or North Korea. They're basically the same, a tiny pariah state barking loud at anyone that looks at them while getting support from a rich neighbor.
Except one has backing and funding by a large portion of the western world.
load more comments
(3 replies)
This quote could've been passed as from Putin and would be believable. Astonishing that people still don't notice the parallels.
Take these nuts to your mouth bitch
The US let its rabid dog off the leash again.
Can you fucking not, Israel? I was just there and lebanon is having enough trouble as is (as usual).
One of these days, they’re going to reveal their “Final Solution” when it comes to Muslims. It’s obvious this is an extermination campaign.
The US has couped and attempted coups of better nations for worse reasons and yet they give this genocidal maniac all the leeway and weapons he could ask for. This is who the US is. There's simply no money to be made saving victims of genocide so they will go unsaved.
Israel is just making things worse.
view more: next ›