this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
552 points (81.9% liked)
Memes
45542 readers
1110 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Israel is a terrorist state.
While there surely is reason to criticize Israel on many levels I don't understand what people like you expect what Israel or any other state would do if there was a group (Hamas, which is designated as terrorist by many Democratic countries) raiding it's territory and kills and kidnaps a number of it's citizen.
just to put in relation 1.400/10.000.000 Israelis would equal 46.000 USA citizen (333.000.000 inhabitants). when applying this scale this would be much worse than 9/11.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it's own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won't give you this information.
Anyway, the whole middle east is fucked up and I wish that they could finally all live in peace and ditch their religious fanaticism so the few can not exploit the religious for their fascist cause whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
Hmmm...
So in other words if this killing helps rooting out Hamas then it is all justified. Because obviously the next generation of Palestinians will be thankful that their siblings, parents, grandparents where rooted out of their homes or slaughtered in the name of anti-terrorism action as collateral damage. Surely nobody growing up without prospects and has to deal with such hardships will wabt any revenge or justice for their sufferings. Surely this will not radicalize the middle east any further. In fact they should be grateful that they are honored to die in the name of Israëls justice.
If it wasn't clear this is obviously sarcastic..
I don't want to justify, all I am looking for is a discussion. I could not provide a solution either and I do not support war. All I am saying is that I don't know what to expect from a country to do.
I do not excuse killing of civilians or even genocide and personally think that Israel should take more care about civilians which is even in alignment with the statement of Mr. Blinken. Also they may rightfully be criticized in relation to blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All I do say is that unbased information is hard to come by at this stage as the information sphere from inside Gaza is mostly controlled by Hamas. Israel surely is no unbiased source of news either, but international press has more access there. Again I do not neglect nor justify killing civilians and especially children. But still it should be distinguished between actual genocide which includes intentionally deporting and killing civilians and collateral damage, both of which are to condemn, as are the actions of Hamas relating to raiding and terrorizing Israel civilians and taking them hostage. This is no way of deescalation obviously either.
You can take issue with the numbers and be as conspiratorial about them as you like, but that goalpost movement doesn't do anything to support your point.
Your unwillingness to label the killing of thousands of children in either regard shows an apologism and an intellectual dishonesty that doesn't bely any useful contribution to the discussion.
Faux impartiality and centrism is the kind of toxic behaviour that lets these atrocities go unchecked.
Jesus fucking Christ. I am not unwilling and I do not deny this.
Well, I have work to do. Read all my other comments on this post.
The other comment:
Huh? I don't have a strong opinion on any of this and do not deny. I would prefer independent investigations on this by parties not involved in this conflict (or war or potential genocide whatever you want to call this).
More than half of the population, about 52%, were under the age of 18, making them children.
Indiscriminate bombing, which Israel is doing, will cause about half of those fatalities to be children.
Asking for independent journalistic verification in a war zone where Israel won't let independent journalists in is the equivalent of denying. You know there is no verification meeting your impossible standards.
Not letting food and water sufficient for a population of 2.2 million in when you control the borders is intentionally killing civilians.
Yes and they should be condemned for this and they are.
Not by you:
This is you 'both-siding' genocide.
There is one proper response to genocide. Unconditional condemnation without qualifying. Anything else is standing idlely by.
Criticism while also saying 'but Hamas did this' is not unconditional condemnation.
Let me ask you this: do you think there is any behavior that can justify genocide?
This is you justifying it.
Let me guess: you're a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
Hahaha never. Now fuck off with them Nazis.
Edit: To be clear and give my final statement. I am not politically active and do not have an agenda. I am not member of any political party, but I do actively vote and politically debate with friends. Currently i would consider myself mostly in line with the green party while having a negative view on both extremist left and right boundaries but I also dislike the major parties curruption riddled SPD (esp. Scholz), CDU and inhumane corporate and lobby party FDP. AfD and the other Nazi parties are the worst obviously.
No, I do not justify bombing civilian infrastructure. I do try to explain why civilian casualties are too high. While Hamas should not use civilians as human shields, Israel should not bomb them non the less and disregard civilian casualties. It's both wrong.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate
This is what human shields look like.