this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2024
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I don't believe in rights. at least, there's no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I'm not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you're talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.
I didn't think that I'd have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it's true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.
Not even positive rights? You're literally like "authority means it is by definition a class society" and you don't believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don't want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they're not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I'd love to hear it.
we all know about the bootmaker, but i would say if there is an oppressive hierarchy, it's not anarchist.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
you don't get to define what i am.
And you don't get to no true Scotsman away the Catalonian or Ukrainian anarchists, who did large scale anarchist projects.
if you have cops, you're not a fucking anarchist society. this shouldn't be hard to understand.
it's tautological
no. words have meanings.
Okay, so at this point it seems anarchist societies are pretty impossible, if all these principled anarchists end up forming non-anarchist societies over and over again when they win power.
So what is even the point of being an anarchist? To feel good about yourself?
which marxist project ended up stateless and classless?
Thats literally the difference between us, I believe less exploitation is better than waiting for a perfect solution. Socializing the means of production, even if it doesn't eliminate all exploitation, eliminates capitalist exploitation, which is a massive win for the working class as it is the main source of our exploitation.
I'm not sure if after capitalism is destroyed socialist States will actually wither away or not, but Im sure they'll be less bloody to move past than capitalism was if it is the latter.
i think we could get along fine on mutual aid projects. i don't think i can trust you to facilitate a meeting.
I dont exist in structures where the meeting facilitator has that much of an impact to the point that the meeting would be derailed by a shitty one, but I guess that's a difference between the ways our ideologies organize.
it was the smallest amount of power I could concieve. certainly, there is an authority in small things like setting the agenda and deciding on how strictly to adhere to timetables.
Wouldn't that disagree with your ai generated notion of authority, if someone is appointed to facilitate it through a democratic mechanism?
Wait, do they not do that at anarchist meetings?
a lot of the meetings that I go to are pretty much organized as do-ocracies. someone says they are willing to do the work of taking notes or do the work of facilitating, and everybody's relieved that they didn't have to step up.
That doesn't sound consensus based or consent based at all, lol, you don't even have a democratically elected and instantly recallable committee to assign the work? Damn, anarchists are out here having more hierarchy in their political structure than the tankies.
Earnestly: while we live in a deeply stratified society, if you dont intentionally form power structures informal, incredibly undemocratic ones will fill that void, as is this case with what you're describing.
I mostly organize with mlms, actually. they are far more prevalent in my local scene
no. we should judge people by their actions. we should judge ideologies by their propositions.
Okay, I see. If we are judging ideologies purely by "wouldn't it be nice if" then anarchism is clearly superior.
Well, on second though, no. "wouldn't it be nice if we didn't get defeated by fascists" certainly has a pretty nice ring to it...
you almost got me
i'm not saying i have a good plan. i'm saying i am suspicious of any plan that concentrates power, and i believe my suspicion is warranted.
I mean, look up the life expectancy of China vs India over time. Place your suspicion against the facts.
The fact is that China has police and prisons and banks. I don't know for sure but I would guess they even have landlords. That's not my revolution.
that makes no sense. mercantilism threw no revolution.
oh fuck. forgot one.
you know I dwelt on this a bit, and the revolution was thrown by the people and it wasn't thrown for mercantilism. it was just against the feudal system. but what followed was mercantilism. merchants didn't throw the revolution. I don't know how you got the conclusion that the French revolution was a mercantilist revolution. I honestly can't think of a single mercantilist revolution. The closest thing I can imagine are the American revolution and possibly the piracy of the 18th century.
I wouldn't oppose them. You're making that up.
i support overthrowing the czars and stalin. i support overthrowing the landlords and the maoist structures.
this isn't a trial. it's a discussion. you don't win by trapping me into a false dichotomy.
i'm not trying to win anything.