this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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And then Europeans come and say we need more "democracy", how democracy could work in countries like that? You will always descent to things like Modi in India without educating ppl properly.
I disagree with that assessment. At least with respect to Pakistan, ideological capture by the right-wing was facilitated by anti-democratic forces. There is a very strong "Mullah-military connection". It was during the dictatorship of General Zia in the 1980s that Pakistan officially became an "Islamic Republic". He banned public dance/music performances, established Shariah courts, introduced anti-women rape laws and instituted the blasphemy law which is mentioned in the linked article. More recently, the army has been facilitating the rise of Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan through patronage, a right-wing reactionary party that primarily centers the defence of Islam and going after blasphemers. They also funded and armed several Islamist militant groups as proxies against India (not to mention the Afghan Taliban in the 80s with the help of the US).
Had Pakistan's democracy not been meddled with by the military, had we not gone through Zia's Islamization in the 80s, things would not be as fucked as they are today.
And from my vantage point as a Pakistani, the only reason things in India didn't get similarly bad until the recent rise of BJP is because India was founded as a secular democracy and had a functioning democratic system (at least relative to us). BJP is also a populist anti-democratic force, similar to MAGA in the US, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Duterte in the Philippines, and Georgia Meloni and her alt-right peers in Europe. Religious populism is not unique to us developing nations, it is a rising threat around the world. However, I will agree that we are suffering the worst of it because lack of civil rights and weak civil institutions.
I agree with you entirely, what I was trying to say is something like you said
What I was trying to say in a dumber way, you have to create an "ecosystem" for democracy and just elections are not enough. Idk what is the best path for Pakistan, but countries like that usually need a complex institution overhaul and educate the population to function as a decent democracy, and sometimes just trying to force this European view of democracy can introduce even more chaos, like in Libya
Also re: "educating the population" about how to participate in a democracy - as someone who spent the last 3 years doing housing rights activism in the inner city, I can attest that people who are less economically privileged and ostensibly less "educated" tend to vote at higher rates than the middle and upper class, and participate actively in local politics because even incremental progress in e.g. public welfare programs or improving local infrastructure has a big impact on them. This also holds true for the rural working class.
So I don't think it is a matter of education. I know several highly educated boomers who e.g. were very supportive of the military dictatorship of Pervez Musharraf from 2000 - 2008. Incidentally the US was also highly supportive of his regime because of his role in the war on terror.
Education in this case is not about formal education, but understanding how politics work and what are the alternatives. I know ppl that never pass the fourth grade that are decent political/local leaders and middle class ppl with PHD supporting fascism.
Yeah, but this is equally a problem in European and North American countries, too. So they are in no position to "educate" our populations on how to do democracy. They just need to stop supporting anti-democratic forces and engage with our countries based on their professed democratic principles rather than geopolitical interests.
We didn´t disagree, ppl is being demobilized by the destruction of public debate spaces like unions, this happened, and still happens in some places, with countries in development by force and now is happening in developed countries by propaganda. I feel you think I'm talking about some kind of professoral propaganda like another brick in the wall when I talk about education, but I'm actually talking about Paulo Freire kind of education. I wasn't in any point trying to say that ppl should be teached about democracy and how they should vote but that they should been given the tools to create their own debates and their own way to experience democracy.
I guess my disagreement is that Western countries are in no position to give these tools because they have not undergone that process themselves. The master's tools will not dismantle the master's house, etc
But my first comment was actually criticizing westerns that think they know better how any development country should work.
True but it also suggested that democracy cannot work in these countries at all.
To which I replied that it is not trying to institute democracy that causes this, but rather supporting dictatorships and anti-democratic actors, which is what western powers have been doing.
But good to know there is little we disagree about on this topic besides phrasing and perhaps our degree of optimism about the democratic process, or lack thereof.
You are right, I was trying to say that I think democracy in the western way would not work in the current institutional situation, not that would not work at all. I phrased it badly.